I'm a gypsyologist AMA

[Devlesko]

Just this really, anyone interested I'll answer if I can.

[whataboutbob]

Sorry if this has already been asked. Is it true that a significant number of Romany people came to Britain from Eastern Europe in the 19th century/ early twentieth?
I lived in Romania for a few months and it was striking how Indian many of the Romany there looked . I find British Romany seldom look that Indian, although a few do. In kent you used to see some quite traditional looking ones around at events such as the large weekly boot fair in Canterbury, but not so much anymore. Ladies with long skirts and plaited hair, guys in hats and gold earrings. I miss them!
.

[JanewaysBun]

@develop thank you for answering, I will try and find the name and check some FB groups

[JanewaysBun]

@devlesko sorry mistyped!

[nailsathome]

Hi, I was just wondering if you could tell me is Peak a Romany name? I'm just starting to look into my grandparents history. And Henes?

[Devlesko]

@whataboutbob

Sorry if this has already been asked. Is it true that a significant number of Romany people came to Britain from Eastern Europe in the 19th century/ early twentieth?
I lived in Romania for a few months and it was striking how Indian many of the Romany there looked . I find British Romany seldom look that Indian, although a few do. In kent you used to see some quite traditional looking ones around at events such as the large weekly boot fair in Canterbury, but not so much anymore. Ladies with long skirts and plaited hair, guys in hats and gold earrings. I miss them!
.

I think it was before the 19th Century, although the 1930's onwards saw a lot of mvement due to the concentration camps, where Romany/ Roma, were transported a long time before the attrocities of Hitler.
There are at least 1000,000 Romany in Romania and iirc the same in Brazil.
Yes, Kent was the main place for Romany in England, not just the hop picking in summer but we lived in the forests until evicted in the 1960's.
Some did stay, but nowhere near the population that existed in the area before.
Yes, the genes are quite funny at times. I have a cousin who is ginger and this has never happened, I have the odd blond or lighter haired person in the family, but mainly we are dark haired and what was described as swarthy whatever that means.
I only have to go out in the sun, not bathing and I go a beautiful brown colour almost instantly.
People often think I've been abroad for a month when I've just been outside a bit

[user1456864987]

Do you know if Moss is a gypsy surname? According to my Grandmother her Great Grandmother was a gypsy - she is shown in parish records at her marriage (1836) as Sarah Moss and subsequent census show her as born in Bury St Edmunds, but I can't find any births which match her, and no Moss families living in that area. Is it possible she changed her name when marrying out?

[whataboutbob]

Thanks for answering devlesko. Interesting that there was movement from Eastern Europe to the U.K. before the 19th century. Apparently enslaved Rom were not uncommon in Romania up until the 20th century, so it wouldn’t be surprising that some had decided to get out and move west.

[Krate]

Devlesko what a lovely thread!

Do you know of the Gurney family in London?

[Frogsonglue]

This thread is amazing!
I went to school with a lot of Smiths (East Yorkshire) in the 90s, and in the years since then I've often reflected on how poorly the school managed things. There was basically segregation; the traveller kids (as they were referred to) kept almost completely to themselves bar the odd scuffle, were almost exclusively in bottom sets and there was never any attempt to address this or to challenge the general prejudice and fear in the majority school population. What a missed opportunity for education about such a rich culture and history. Reading that timeline from the Doncaster project Is heartbreaking and humbling. Thank you so so much for sharing all of this.

(My only connection with the Smiths was when my sister and I had a horse "on loan" from a classmate for six months or so. She was a fantastic trotter and had been one of that family's best brood mares. It was the closest I ever came to horse ownership and I loved her so much; I cried for weeks after they took her back. I'd love to learn more about the horse culture in that part of the country if you have any resources).

[81Byerley]

Hi @Devlesko, This is so interesting! The only time I ever (knowingly ) spoke to Romanies was when I was fostering a newborn baby girl, and a girl and her Grandmother were in Asda and approached me to see the baby. They told me they were Romanies, and the girl, aged 18 said that she had married when she was 16, still no sign of a baby. She cried as she told me of her longing for a child, and asked if I thought she'd be able to get a child like that. I directed her to the local adoption agency, but wasn't sure if she and her husband would be considered for adoption, though I didn't say that. Do Romanies adopt children?
Also, with all the prejudice that Romanies face, it's understandable if they are insular. But generally, how friendly are Romanies towards the rest of us? A few years ago I had to drive near Appleby in the run up to the horse fair, and really wanted to stop and say how beautiful one of the horse drawn caravans was. It was parked up, and the lady was cooking over a fire. I didn't stop because I wasn't sure of my welcome!

[CousinKrispy]

Thank you for a very interesting thread! I used to do a lot of "international folk dancing" in my home in the USA and Eastern European gypsy music and dance was always a favourite for many of us.

whataboutbob mentioned enslaved Rom in Romania in the past--some years ago I read a fascinating book called Bury Me Standing by a researcher who spent time living with Roma in Albania and she had some interesting details on the enslavement of gypsies in Romania. I believe she theorized that the really bad discrimination against them in Romania at the time of publication and previously was tied to a sort of guilty conscience on the part of Romanian society.

[Sadsiblingatsea]

Given footage of how this community treat their animals, particularly horses, I would prefer not to romanticise their behaviour. The culture also seems very misogynistic.

[MissingInActon]

Bit of a generalisation! You could say that about any group you chose to designate as "this community", really. All communities contain unpleasant people.

[Devlesko]

Hello all,
I'll try and answer from the top. If I miss you, just shout eh, you missed me and i'll get back to you.

Now names. I belong to a group that asks for family members alphabetically, new one everyday etc.
Whilst I don't have any myself/ I've seen Orchard, and Gurney (London).

The name Moss, I'm not familiar with, it could be a Romany name or Sarah may have been a non Romany marrying in, but she would have changed her name on marriage.
The only difference I've heard and seen is if they are both from very old families. At one time they'd have fought, now they double barrel.
It's not unusual to see Rose Smith Boswell for e.g.

It would have been doubtful that the young Romany couple would have been allowed to adopt. Not that I believe we are bad parents but we along with society in general like to be on the fringes of society, and this seems to be ingrained for various reasons. There are also a disproportionate number of traveller children in the care system.

Aw, the lady at Appleby, i'd like to say she'd have welcomed you for a cup of tea and offered you food. However, I suppose it depends on how much racism she'd received that day.
I think had you approached and said what you did about her waggon, she'd be putty in your hands.

The side of my family with horses and waggons would welcome you, and probably not let you leave for hours. Gypsy time is something else.
Tbh, to me the nicest thing in the world is to pull over, make tea, and take a small table and chair out with a good book. Any company as long as nice, is welcome.

The slavery in Romania, absolutely heart breaking. Roma are treated terribly throughout Europe and some of the stories that are coming out.
We are still very much in the infancy of understanding our Heritage, by that I mean the last 20 or so years. Hungary, Italy, to name a couple.
There were also forced and coerced sterilisation projects in Slovakia until around 2000, the last case brought forward, was 2004.

In the UK we are punished, and discriminated against with Laws and loss of freedom. Across Europe it's savage, some of the scenes I saw during covid lockdowns were terrible.

Animals.
All I can say is the difference in philosophy between travellers and non travellers is the animals position.
Yes, we believe our animals are inferior as we tend to have them as working animals rather than pets. There is nothing in our culture that encourages the bad treatment of animals.
A horse breeder is hardly going to sell an animal they have neglected or ill treated.
That's not to say that it doesn't happen, of course it does. However, it happens throughout society, just the same as people leave messes on beaches etc.
People from all walks of life can be awful.

[flowerycurtain]

I only know of the gypsy fraternity from hare coursing.

Any comments on that?

[Soubriquet]

My dh’s grandad was Romany Gypsy, and dh spent a lot of his time on Gypsy camps when he was growing.

I don’t know a whole lot about it but this has been an interesting read. He’s always trying to get the kids to embrace their gypsy heritage. Or at least what little of there is in them

[Soubriquet]

Oh we are Smiths too

[Cotswoldmama]

My German grandad always said we had descended from Hungarian gypsies but I was never sure if he was being serious. I do get told I look a bit Indian, maybe it's true! Have you read the book Zoli by Colum Mc Cann? Do you think it's a good representation of gypsy life? It based loosely of the life of Papusza. I like to imagine it's how my ancestors may have lived!

[mardymardymustard]

Ah, entirely irrelevant but when I was little there was a big field by my house where the same big group of gypsies used to come each summer. There was a boy my age (wish I remembered his name) and we spent all summer playing together until one year they built a big leisure complex on the field and he of course couldn't come back . I often think about him.

I remember they always had so many puppies and kittens and my mum always used to complain when we walked past while on our way to the shops, because we'd have to find someone to fetch them in or else they'd follow us into town.

[Devlesko]

@Soubriquet

Ask him which area the camp was? He should certainly do his DNA if he is interested.
So much is coming at us so quickly.
First Linguistics and extensive work on history projects and oral history.
Smiths have so much history and lived throughout England and Wales.
My kids aren't interested in following the culture, apart from travelling but for 2 of them it wouldn't be a lifestyle just a holiday.
Not sure about dd yet, she does want to travel and it will be for work. She won't follow anything too cultural though. Maybe washing and washing up, but that makes sense.
I can't see her throwing away any item that falls on the floor as she's a bit clumsy.

OMG I had to google hare coursing. I can't find the words. Animals.
There's nothing cultural about that, and thank God, nothing I've come across.
In olden days my ancestors would eat meat they'd poached, it was the way of life, but always shot and killed humanely.
Today it tends to be Tesco or Asda, and of course the popular trolley of food appeal for food banks, at Christmas.
There was a lady here who had a rescue dog from travellers, and my dsis said she'd seen some caged. Maybe this is what they were used for, disgusting.

No, how embarrasing and naughty but I haven't read that book yet. I know it exists and is on my list, I hear it's excellent but can't comment I'm afraid

Awe that's so sad about the little boy, with the increase in population all the common land was sold off to big investors.
Like Thorney Hill where my parents lived and generations before. Centuries, until Londoners thought we spoilt the aesthetics. We were the aesthetics. I'm not bitter Nothing against Londoners btw, it's just that's where they came from.

[KateF]

Such a fascinating thread. I started reading because I used to do some support work with traveller children in a local school. There are quite a few sites around here (Bedfordshire) and sadly a lot of prejudice.
I've read the whole thread now and seen the name Biddle mentioned. My great great grandmother was Hannah Biddle who married into the Armson family in Tamworth. Family legend is that the marriage was not well received although Biddle persisted as a middle name for sons for a while. Can you tell me any more about the name?

[MichaelMumsnet]

Thanks to all who have contributed so far. The OP has left the site and won't be returning to answer any further questions. We'll leave the thread but close it to further comments.