I live in Saudi Arabia. AMA!

[Shmithecat]

I still hear so many daft claims about certain aspects of living in KSA. Happy to confirm or deny what you've been told!

@showmethegin

Lots of other countries do commit human rights abuses - as has been mentioned by many other posters, the US included.

It is the nature and extent of the abuses in the KSA that make it a different case.

It is and has been for a long time one of the top ten human rights abusers in the world. No one is saying don't go to any country that does anything wrong but you could at least try to avoid the top ten!

That's not too onerous is it?

The calls to start you own thread are basically saying we want to ignore the horror we want a nice chat about shiny cars, cats and shopping malls. Those of us who support human rights believe the priority should not be on houses, money and swimming pools but on the value and dignity of human life.

You are effectively saying stop mentioning human rights and let us chat about shiny things...

No that's what YOU said. I haven't at any point asked about 'shiny cars', I couldn't give a shit about that.

And you said so yourself 'it's the nature' of what Saudi Arabia do. I've already addressed that. As has the OP. She believes the death penalty is abhorrent as do I in all of its forms.

Turning this thread into a slanging match and repeating yourself again and again about human rights like all of us on this thread are stupid and have no idea or couldn't possibly understand as well as you is arrogant and rude. FWIW I'm currently studying criminology and sociology so do understand what goes on. As does the OP AS SHE LIVES THERE AND ISNT STUPID.

I was simply saying that TO YOU what Saudi Arabia does is the absolute worst of the worst but others think differently. I think insidious racism and inherent misogyny dressed up as 'the land of the free' to be just as frightening. That is my choice.

For all your calls of answer the question OP (even though she has, multiple times) I noticed not one of you answered whether you already were or were considering boycotting the big long list of companies OP provided. If not then I respectfully suggest you are supporting the regime and choose to ignore that. How is that better?

I think the OP would have predicted the questions being a mix of 'what's the shopping like?' and 'how can you be comfortable living in a country where poor workers are treated live slaves and executions happen in public'.

And FFS, I do NOT need to be chaperoned when I go out, and I will NOT get arrested for having breakfast with a man that is not my husband.

When you say that, do you mean safely within the confines of your compound/behind your gates or could you happily do that outside of them?

This thread is truly astonishing.

Apart from anything else, the Saudi women I've met arent happy with the restrictions but loathe the deeply patronizing and offensive attitudes of Western women.

Of -some- western women. Sorry, absolutely didn't mean to tar everyone with the same brush.

This thread is truly astonishing

The beheading is just death is death comment (sorry, can't find exact quote now as it's a long thread) had me particularly
Yes, astonishing indeed!

@LimeKiwi
And FFS, I do NOT need to be chaperoned when I go out, and I will NOT get arrested for having breakfast with a man that is not my husband.

When you say that, do you mean safely within the confines of your compound/behind your gates or could you happily do that outside of them?

Outside!

Again with the cultural relativism SeaEagleFeather? Have you read the story of the al Subaie sisters who had to steal their father's phone so they could use his "women-tracking app" to escape KSA ans ask for asylum? I'm not sure western women offering (according to you) unwanted and patronising support and solidarity is their biggest problem.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/28/wife-tracking-apps-saudi-arabias-vile-regime-crucifixion?CMP=sharebtnnfb&fbclid=IwAR2bi38Z-Ci4lNkzccIwqnAvo8ovnE5HJpACC_lxvl75-kEQLhwivvNKm4

LimeKiwi not the OP, but outside compound, no issue being unaccompanied. No issue with Saudi ladies being unaccompanied in the local vicinity. More issues with chaperoning local ladies leaving the country - although noone has ever questioned me traveling in/out of kingdom with the kids on my own (foreign passport privilege?).

@Leafyhouse just to add to the schools response: our international schools are much cheaper in Khobar. One at more like 50K, and the expensive one at 60k (so £10k and £12k). So cost of living varies enormously across the country.

LimeKiwi not the OP, but outside compound, no issue being unaccompanied. No issue with Saudi ladies being unaccompanied in the local vicinity

Sorry if this sounds a daft question but you mean it's OK to be unaccompanied only in the local vicinity of the compound for women (some?) women? So it still doesn't sound like people can go around freely unaccompanied in the country without a male at all.

And the other question can they have breakfast with a man who is not their husband?

@LimeKiwi

No, not just the vicinity of the compound. I can go anywhere I like without my husband. I've flown to other domestic cities without him, gone to see the dr without him , and I regularly fly home to the UK without him.

grimupnorthLondon, yes, I used to breakfast quite often with men other than my husband when he was working a 6 day week - most Saturday mornings.

I can go anywhere I like without my husband

I see you use the word I - is it like that for everyone or is it a case of as you're wealthy British foreigners the rules get bended/relaxed for you?

I know a number of Saudi women. All those I know are educated, so their experiences may be different.

Women there routinely go about their days without a male. However, all women must have guardians. That may be a father, brother, or husband. The guardian can restrict a woman’s job, and gives consent to travel. Typically there isn’t familial conflict about the guardian’s role. Often, men have no issue with what their women are doing, but what neighbours may think can influence a decision. This concept of guardian is starting to change, at a glacial pace.

Local vicinity meaning city/metropolis. The cities are very far apart, or have merged into one major metropolis. So without being able to drive (now changing), and very limited public transport, it's actually really difficult to go to another city with out a chaperone from a physical point of view, or you need very deep pockets!
As a western woman, I've crossed the border in a car driven by an unrelated male (ie taxi driver, not in my employment) without issue. But that was to get to my second closest city. I wouldnt go to Ryiadh - it's about a 4 hr drive away - with out dh driving or flying (alone or accompanied). So, a pretty expensive taxi (90 mins driving each way) or a plane ticket, to leave the urban area I'm in.

Noone has ever questioned if I'm out with my husband or another man! So I'm not sure how you would "know" im not with my husband. And since Saudi ladies dont take their husbands surname, any ID wouldnt remove any doubt. I guess if your Brother-in-Law saw you out with your affair partner, and he recognised you under an abaya and veil it could prove tricky. I've not had occasion to go out for dinner or breakfast without DH, but with another man and his wife! There are several blokes I know well enough that I would do so, if the occasion arose tho. I wouldn't go and grab a drink with a random I met on the street - but I wouldnt do that in the UK either!

@SeaEagleFeather no, not because I think that. Because I have seen evidence from many sources - including the article I linked to you (14 US senators have offered support to those sisters by the way, hardly a radical position) and many Amnesty reports linked to by previous posters showing how terrible these womens' lives (and sometimes their deaths) can be when they wish to conduct their lives in a way of which their male guardians do not "approve". I have read those facts and decided that I would not like to be a woman living under such an arbitrary regime and that I would like to offer support to those who do. I have not yet seen any posts here that disprove any of that evidence - when it is shown to be fabricated then I shall reconsider my views.

I have no difficulty at all believing that there are many Saudi women who get on well with their "guardians" and are living happy lives but that does not in itself mean that the many other cases are untrue. Do you think that they are?

@LimeKiwi

I can go anywhere I like without my husband
I see you use the wordI- is it like that for everyone or is it a case of as you're wealthy British foreigners the rules get bended/relaxed for you?

No. I see hundreds and hundreds of women out by themselves every time I leave the compound.

If you're genuinely interested in what I think - as opposed to imposing your views, as some have on this thread - then no, I think the situation is awful. The situation for women / minorities in many countries is awful in -practice- in many countries, but there is a systematized and legal framework for the profound sexism in the KSA that is just wrong. IMO.

When you have institutionalised injustice, you'll always have intense injustices. Those need to be fought against. The torture and executions are well documented and again, the legal framework needs (imo!) to be changed so that that stops.

The legal rules mold the nature of a culture. With these rules, I suspect the result is a great deal more physical domestic violence and mental domestic violence, and that the psychological impact is deeply destructive. Because women are the bottom of the (household) heap, they tend to be victims more than the men though it's not healthy for either gender to be in this dynamic.

So I do think there will be many many cases of unhappiness, and even where there is a happy domestic situation, I can't imagine many women are happy in principle with institutionalized de-powerment.

What I strongly object to on this thread - really strongly - is that some posters have distorted and misrepresented posts from the OP and others. Some of them have moved into downright dishonesty and a rather pathetic moral grandstanding.

I guess I'm allergic to being told what to think.

I also think that it's much, much more effective in bringing about change if you accept people as they are and then try to work with them towards change, rather than saying "you're bad because you go there".

One poster said that she was worried about the moral effect on the OP's children because the OP finds it ok to live and work there - that was really offensive, if you can take it seriously at all.

Thanks @SeaEagleFeather. That's very clearly put and I totally agree with your analysis of how legal rules mould culture.

I also completely agree that it is often galling when one feels "called out" or "lectured" on the internet and how that kind of very aggressive discussion culture is unlikely to lead to many converts to a cause.

However, I would observe that OP and various other posters on this thread have made some quite jaw-droppingly blasé statements, such as "death is death" even when horrific details of public executions are given to them. I can see how that and a continued tone-deaf focus on rescuing cats and club class flights in the context of the wider horrors have proved irritating to many of those who have taken the trouble to inform themselves about what actually goes on in KSA.

The gay people I have met in Saudi haven't been whipped... your blanket statement of 'if you're gay you will be whipped' is just not true. If my son turns out to be gay and we're still living here (highly unlikely, but still), then I'll be telling them how to behave to avoid such arrests. All I can do, if I were to have a dd, is my very best to ensure that she never gets into any kind of scenario that would potentially end that dreadfully.

So your son would have to live a lie and your daughter just... um.. Not get raped. Because it's just that easy.

It could be irritating but being lectured and patronised by some really very sanctimonious posters is also irritating. I think the OP has been unusually open about how she feels about the difficult issues. People aren't usually that blunt about "death is death", even when that's what they feel, and so it's been a bit in-your-face.

But gaining some info on what life -can- be like by someone who's actually living there now is quite valuable. No society is one-dimensional, as some seem to portray it on this thread, and gaining a more nuanced understanding can only be to the good. A few bits that the OP written have given me a tiny glimpse into life there and I'm glad of that.

Thank you for reading my post with a genuine engagement grimup