Vegan ask me anything

[Zeze247]

Ask away

Forgot to link the thread I was quoting from: www.fcrn.org.uk/forums/general-discussion-35

@Motherofchickens without question the boys were killed, almost certainly just after hatching. The 2 methods are grinding up in a sort of blender or gassing. Buying eggs or chickens from that farm gives them demand to keep doing that to chicks. If you decide to get more chickens I’d recommend looking into ex battery chickens. You’ll be giving them a lovely new life- you might not get as many eggs and some will probably die from the trauma they’ve been through but you’ll still get some and the satisfaction of seeing a scrawny featherless broken little thing transform into a beautiful feathered bird must be amazing! I’d do it if I could but our title deeds are no poultry. It doesn’t fund the industry as they are given away for practically free www.bhwt.org.uk/rehome-some-hens/

Onecutefox Mon 16-Jul-18 19:26:45 I believe the vegans would use only vegan farmers or not?

There are not enough "veganic farmers" to feed the existing vegans. Veganic farmers don't kill animal pests themselves but rely on hunters to kill and eat them, whilst relying on a "magical natural balance" that doesn't really exist when it comes to persistent animal pests.

Most vegans therefore have to eat intensively farmed foods that use chemicals and pest control.

It's all cloud cuckoo land.

A serious question. What do vegan mothers do when they can't breastfeed?

@GerdaLovesLili eh what? Veganic farming doesn’t need any human hunters. Natural predators may be part of the ecosystem of course- there will be no need to kill foxes to protect chickens if there are no chickens www.veganism.com/introduction-to-veganic-gardening/

“Mice, rabbits and other small animals aren’t killed by plows, tractors and combine harvesters. No shotguns are used to kill crows or other birds who attempt to take their share of the crops. Explosives aren’t used against rodents in their burrows. Violence isn’t leveled against any other being who, naturally, might want to feed on or make use of the crops being produced on their habitat. This motivation forms the basis of the method of gardening and farming known as Vegan-Organic, or in North America as Veganic, agriculture. It is also referred to as stockfree organic in the U.K.”

“Burrowing animals may be prevented from disturbing particular crops by fencing which is buried around particular areas, rather than their being repelled or killed by invasive and violent use of poisons, explosives, or noise deterrents. Predation from crows and pigeons may be prevented by completely enclosing certain crops (such as strawberries) in netting and wire fencing.”

This is cloud cuckoo land and killing 56 billion land animals and trillions of aquatic animals a year isn’t?!

@derxa the definition of vegan is as far as possible and practical so probably milk banks as far as they can and then formula. I would certainly not do anything that will harm the baby. It is so important to get extensive post natal support for breast feeding as the number of vegan women who actually physically can’t do it will be very small and they’ll be very motivated to do it if they have a lot of support. It’s a choice to breast feed of course but a vegan will make that choice if it’s possible and practical to do so.

@GeradaLovesLili and no there aren’t enough Veganic farmers yet but this isn’t a lifestyle about being “pure” it’s avoiding animal exploitation as far as possible and practical. So as soon as there are sufficient Veganic crops we will buy those. The amount will be increasing as there is more interest with veganism having risen by 360% in 10 years. For now we go with the principle of least harm- animals are fed far more crops and based on their food conversion ratios you’d be paying for the death of the animal, and all the pests killed growing the animal’s food, which is far more than if you just ate plant foods.

@GerdaLovesLili eh what? Veganic farming doesn’t need any human hunters. Natural predators may be part of the ecosystem of course

Hahahahahahahah! Of course human hunters are needed to kill pests! The veganic farmers may not be doing it themselves but they're relying on it. The system doesn't work like that! Pigeons on their own are a huge, huge problem that foxes can't cope with. It's hypocritical, cloud-cuckoo -land thinking.

Anyone who has ever tried organic veggie production on any scale is always stymied by this problem. Sad, but true.

And "veganic" methods just wouldn't produce the volume of vegetable matter necessary if we all decided to be vegan.

Vegan eating is a middle-class fad for people who have lots of money. Mostly so they can feel superior and smug.

A sensible mostly vegetarian diet is probably best and even attainable for everyone using kinder farming methods, but not a vegan one.

Did you read any of what that article said? Where is your evidence that Veganic methods don’t work or don’t produce the numbers of vegetables needed?

And vegan doesn’t require loads of money and isn’t a fad I don’t know why people have such derision for others who are trying to make compassionate choices and improve the world for future generations.

I don’t know anyone who does it who does so to feel superior and smug. Most vegans don’t even talk about it. You’ve probably met lots and not even been aware of them being vegan!

I think I might come across as crackpot for saying this but I have always wondered.....

There been studies showing that trees 'talk' to each other and can 'organise' to help prevent pest infestation amongst other things.

If this is the case then you could extrapolate that other plants do similar.

In this country we do have laws that protect animals so they are killed humanely. However we boil potatoes, carrots and other veg alive, and other veg we slice and tear without a second thought.

Whilst it might seem a bit tongue in cheek, how do we know that plants don't feel pain? If they do, it's probably not in a way that we can empathise with - but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Unfortunately us humans are arrogant enough to think only the experiences we have are valid and forget that other life forms experience life in a different way to us.

The only thing we can eat without actually killing anything or the possibility of causing 'pain' as far as I am aware is honey, and fruit, and possibly dairy if you ignore the fact that cows eat grass.

Why do only mammals and bees elicit your sympathy?

@lurker33 really?

No such thing as humane killing of a sentient being that’s an oxymoron.

And if you go back to the principle of least harm, we have to eat something so if plants have feelings (come on, really, they don’t, nobody is a plants rights activist until they meet a vegan) then the least harm is vegan anyway as farmed animals are fed a large quantity of plants and through food conversion ratios you’re responsible for a lot more plant deaths by eating meat.

You cannot conflate physiological plant perception (the ability of plants to sense and adjust to their environment) with paranormal plant perception (the idea that plants are sentient and experience pain and fear). There is no study that has proven the latter.

Kiki, I wasn't writing it from a plants right activist point of view, I'm quite happy to eat plants as well as meat .

I agree, we do have to eat something after all, and yes, you are right that we ought to do least harm - I'm not arguing against that.

The point I was trying to make was that we can't say whether plants 'feel' pain or not, and dismissing it out of hand is a typical human response because we can't imagine how a plant could feel pain (if indeed they do). We can empathise with mammals because we know they feel pain in the same way we do, and animal welfare is often cited as a reason to be vegan.

Another thing I often wonder is whether you have thought what would happen if everyone turned vegan...
Do you think that if everyone turned vegan we would still have cows, sheep, pigs, goats, chickens etc, or would they become extinct? I assume they probably would as it wouldn't be economically viable to farm them. Do you see the extinction of these species as a problem, if so, how would you tackle it?

Kiki, you said There is no study that has proven the latter.

I am no expert, but has any study disproved it? Just because it's not been proven doesn't mean it's been disproved.

I'm just asking people to keep an open mind that's all.

@lurker33 god hasn’t been disproved but I won’t believe in him til he’s proven. You are the one who is putting forward the proposition that plants have feelings so you will need to prove it. It is scientifically proven that animals have feelings.

Vegans don’t just care about mammals either they care about fish, insects, amphibians and reptiles i.e all animals.

If you agree veganism does the least harm and agree doing the least harm is best are you vegan?

Hi Kiki,
No I'm not a vegan, I like meat too much. Yes, I'm probably selfish for that, and I imagine to change my meat eating habit something pretty drastic would have to happen.

Good point about God. I'm not sure you can compare my point to proving that God exists though. Animals experience pain, it's normally a response to outside stimulus that animals react to to preserve life. It's not too far a jump to believe that plants that have been around for much longer have evolved something similar.

@lurker33 vegans do get these same arguments rolled out all the time, what if plants have feelings? What if the animals overpopulate? What if they all go extinct? (Yes I have had both argued, surely only one is possible.

If we all go vegan this will be a gradual process over decades or centuries. Gradually less cows, chickens, pigs will be bred. The thing is these animals are not “natural”. They have been selectively bred to produce huge amounts of milk, or eggs, or to put on lots of weight fast. The natural species they have been bred from are jungle fowl (chicken) aurochs (cattle), wild boar (pigs), wild mouflon (sheep). Fish and crustaceans still exist in their wild varieties.

These animals won’t really be going extinct as they don’t exist in the wild. It’s more like losing a species of dog breed.

But anyway there’s no reason some won’t be kept even after we stop eating them and their secretions. It’s a bit like saying to stop rhino going extinct we need to start breeding and eating them. Nobody says this. I think you can agree it’s ridiculous.

I’m more worried about the native species being killed in land clearances to graze animals or to grow food to feed animals. Think about this “60% of all mammals on Earth are livestock, mostly cattle and pigs, 36% are human and just 4% are wild animals.” Are we really concerned about retaining that 60%? It’s 56 billion killed a year. www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/21/human-race-just-001-of-all-life-but-has-destroyed-over-80-of-wild-mammals-study

@lurker33 This isn’t really the place to discuss plants rights, since if plants have feelings it’s better to be vegan anyway. If you’re very interested maybe start a new topic on it- “AIBU or should weeding be banned in case plants have feelings?” You’ll potentially get broader views too from arable farmers and horticulturists and biologists who can probably give you a more in depth debate.

I would like to ask the OP (or any other vegans on here) what is their view on the keeping of pets?

Kiki, I think you've completely missed the point I was trying to make, probably because I wasn't making it very well tbh .

I'll bow out now. Hats off to vegans for saving the world. I'll carry on making excuses so I can continue to eat meat.

All hail plant rights lol!

Did you read any of what that article said? Where is your evidence that Veganic methods don’t work or don’t produce the numbers of vegetables needed?

I have, over the years made it my business to study permaculture, organic production, and other "kinder" methods of vegetable production. I have even experimented on an allotment-sized scale.

And while I don't doubt that the growers using "veganic"metho d are doing it with the best of intentions, (and might be doing OK on a small scale); they will never produce enough edible plant material for an entirely vegan exponentially growing human population.

They say "they" don't kill pests, that nature does it for them. BUT humans are part of nature and have always, always killed and eaten any local, annoying protein-filled pests that have fattened themselves on crops. Veganic farmers are still hypocritically relying on that happening whilst distancing themselves from it.

On a small scale it might be possible to demonstrate in a highly airy-fairy completely un-referrenced article that Veganic farming works, but it isn't working in a vacuum, and it can't possibly work on a large scale.

If you have ANY better, more academic source material for your magical sky foxes who come along and eat the pigeons who have just migrated into the area and eat a whole field of crops over-night I would be extremely interested to read it. But that's all it takes, one migratory swoop of pigeons and your whole annual crop is gone.

In reality, better yields on the scale that we require are going to be grown using hydroponics or similar methods. This will enable us to avoid killing pests, because the growing environment is tightly controlled and not open to the environment, but it is very hostile to natural local wildlife populations as it provides no habitat.

If a balanced vegan diet cannot be grown and harvested entirely in the UK (or even more locally) as the OP admitted, and if it cannot be grown on the scale required without relying on hostile (but technically animal friendly) methods then it isn't a solution at all. It's a religion.

I became vegetarian over 40 years ago, because I had seen secret camera footage of how animals were being kept, and slaughtered, didnt feel my contrubution would make much difference as a whole, but made me feel better. what is confusing about that, I eat eggs, (we used to have our own chicken so "free range" they used to come indoors, dairy, the animal is kept alive to produce the milk. Fast forward many years, there are millions of vegetarians now, its not a bit unusal. I dont have a problem with people eating meat, I just hope it is well looked after while alive and slaughteed, even great meat eater Gorden Ramsey, says if you keep an animal calm during the last journey ans alughtering process, they dont produce cortisol, and therefore tough meat. We have an organic butcher very near us, the meat comes from the fields and Downs just opposite, completely free range. I used to buy plastic shoes because they were cheaper, now of course we have the plastic waste problem. It would be unrealistic to expect everyone to become vegan,or even vegetarian, what about the livelihood of the many rural farmers, the animals would all be slaughtered. GerdaLovesLili, if you live in the UK peas are not the only crop that can be grown successfully, at the moment I am growing, peas,dwarf, and runner beans sweet corn,squashes,pumpkins,tomatos,cucumber,courgettes,onion,asparagus, peppers,a variety of hard and soft fruit.

You've made some good points Gerda. I don't think many vegans know much about any kinds of agriculture and how difficult it is to produce any kind of food.