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AMA

Vegan ask me anything

114 replies

Zeze247 · 09/07/2018 23:19

Ask away

OP posts:
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kikisparks · 16/07/2018 17:22

@GerdaLovesLili it does explain that “native animals, birds and insects are not driven away, but are welcome to co-habitate. Insect control happens naturally, as part of the overall ecosystem. “Biological control of insect and disease pests occurs naturally by creating or maintaining habitat for pest-eating birds, bats, insects, fungi, bacteria and soil microorganisms.” Veganic farming doesn’t involve killing rabbits or pigeons.

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kikisparks · 16/07/2018 17:24

@tillytillytilly2018 as far as I know there’s no labelling yet to know if products have been farmed veganically. Maybe if you go to farmers markets or local fruit and veg shops they can tell you. Hopefully in future there will be a label!

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Onecutefox · 16/07/2018 17:29

tillytillytilly2018, veganism reminds of a one particular religious cult.

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kikisparks · 16/07/2018 17:35

@Onecutefox it has nothing to do with religion. It’s about logic and critical thought. Religion is about following rules for no reason except some mythical being told you to.

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Ylvamoon · 16/07/2018 17:41

I went vegan for lots of reasons mainly animal welfare.

What's your view on the destruction of the rainforest in order to grow the pluses that provide you with protein.

Or do you believe that the term "animal welfare" only relates to domestic animals?

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kikisparks · 16/07/2018 17:42

@Royallypissedoff1 Actually, since animals eat plants, the pesticides accumulate in their flesh in much higher concentrations. You'd have to eat all the pesticide-laced plants a cow eats to accumulate the same amount of pesticides in its flesh that you would eat.

Choosing organic where you can will limit the exposure to pesticides.

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kikisparks · 16/07/2018 17:45

@Ylvamoon OP will have her own answer but most of the destruction of the rainforest is to grow crops to feed animals. Vegans I have met care a lot about animals in all countries and ime are more likely than the general population to try to avoid palm oil for example. However the single best thing you can do for the environment is adopt a plant based diet.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/veganism-environmental-impact-planet-reduced-plant-based-diet-humans-study-a8378631.html%3famp

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GerdaLovesLili · 16/07/2018 18:08

Veganic farming doesn’t involve killing rabbits or pigeons. Then how do you stop them eating your crop? A troup of pigeons or a family of rabbits can completely clear a field. Especially of young, delicious, new growth. Peas! One of the very few things that can be grown here and have some protein all utterly decimated over the course of a night.

Vegans rely on other people to remove/kill pests so they themselves don't starve and then take the moral high-ground. It's hypocritical.

I'd rather be honest and admit that growing vegetables without chemicals WILL inevitably involve culling edible pests, and that not then eating those pests is a terrible waste of protein.

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Ylvamoon · 16/07/2018 18:25

kikisparks - I have to disagree with you; a lot of rainforests do make place for crop farming like soy beans (tofou ring a bell?)... So the rainforest is on all our conscience.
I also disagree with you on this: However the single best thing you can do for the environment is adopt a plant based diet. The best diet for our environment is one of low carbon emissions and reduced use of chemicals = organic local farming. I source my food locally, most items in my weekly shopping basket are produced / grown in a 40 mile radius.... There are no excessive storage or transport costs to the environment... I know exactly where / how the crop is grown and have watched the cow in the field that provides my milk and cheese.

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kikisparks · 16/07/2018 18:40

@Ylvamoon you can’t disagree with facts, vast vast majority of soya beans fed to farmed animals.

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kikisparks · 16/07/2018 18:43
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pennycarbonara · 16/07/2018 19:01

Unfortunately Ylvamoon there are recent analyses showing that there are some products which have lower carbon emissions when grown in other countries and shipped to the UK. I don't instinctively like this myself and have to accept that if I continue to prefer local food in some of these cases that might be an emotional or ideological choice, or one to support the local/national economy - but not one based on carbon emissions.

I think the longest recent analysis of this I've heard was in a radio programme but have found a couple of articles with written examples to link.

New Zealand lamb imported to the UK still has a lower footprint than UK bred lamb www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/food-wine/100735629/The-average-Kiwi-eats-20kg-less-meat-amid-concerns-over-sustainability-of-agriculture
www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/nz-lambs-better-environment-2240702

This links some recent studies: www.cbc.ca/news/technology/local-organic-carbon-footprint-1.4389910
although these are just repeating older studies that didn't get as much publicity because local food was such a fashionable movement at the time: www.newscientist.com/article/dn13741-food-miles-dont-feed-climate-change-meat-does/

This one shows some that are more complex, e.g. Spanish tomatoes have a lower carbon footprint but contribute to the water crisis in Spain; out of season imported apples have a lower footprint than refrigerated British ones (if the British ones weren't used that would be a great waste, but I suppose if someone was very focused on carbon emissions, they might see not buying them as a contribution to demand reduction) www.thefoodrush.com/articles/why-food-miles-are-a-poor-measure-of-sustainability/

it seems like a complex issue that would vary between different foods.

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Motherofchickens1 · 16/07/2018 19:14

Would you eat eggs from my chickens? I have 3 who live in my garden. Free range. No rooster. They have a happy life and without a rooster wont raise chicks. If I didn't keep them there would be no need for them to be alive. Would you prefer them to have no life rather than a happy life?

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Onecutefox · 16/07/2018 19:26

Vegans rely on other people to remove/kill pests so they themselves don't starve and then take the moral high-ground. It's hypocritical.

I believe the vegans would use only vegan farmers or not?

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derxa · 16/07/2018 19:27

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/nz-lambs-better-environment-2240702
A survey by scientists at the University of Lincoln in New Zealand, concluded that lamb imported from New Zealand is four times as energy efficient as lamb reared in the UK Hmm
Sheep farming is a high welfare form of farming. The sheep eat grass and live on land which can't be used for any other agriculture. Especially in Wales.

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kikisparks · 16/07/2018 19:38

@Ylvamoon do you also take into account the methane produced by those dairy cows? In some ways methane is worse as a GHG than co2. The evidence is that vegan is better for the environment than buying local meat and dairy.

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kikisparks · 16/07/2018 19:39

@Motherofchickens1 where did you get the chickens from? What happened to their brothers?

Most male chicks are gassed or shredded straight after hatching as very few cockerels are needed.

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Motherofchickens1 · 16/07/2018 19:57

@Kikisparks I got my chicken from a free range farm. Good point I don't know what happened to their brothers. But at least my girls are alive and happy. Nor perfect tho.

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pennycarbonara · 16/07/2018 20:01

@derxa Yes there was a similar outcry about another recent, but very small study by the World Wildlife Fund. (They only assessed 4 dishes so 'most' out of those isn't taking account of a lot of others.) www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2018/mar/27/off-the-lamb-how-to-eat-with-a-low-carbon-footprint

It's another one of those unfortunate bits of research that didn't find the data a lot of people would like it to, but high-welfare animal farming has a higher impact environmentally than intensive animal farming. George Monbiot has written a few articles about that and about sheep farming. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/09/vegan-corrupt-food-system-meat-dairy
He generally suggests that land currently used for sheep farming, which may also become economically too difficult in some areas after Brexit, should be rewilded and used for nature reserves and outdoor pursuits. In practice forestry might be a more likely use as is happening in parts of the Scottish Borders S(econd letter): www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/13/the-hills-are-alive-with-anguished-wails-about-the-lake-district

But I do feel an attachment to it as a tradition, that there should be some sheep farming there, albeit less than before, and I don't think there are as yet sustainable materials that can properly replace wool, given the problem of synthetic knit and fleece fabrics shedding polluting microfibres.

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derxa · 16/07/2018 20:27

Ah yes George Monbiot.
but high-welfare animal farming has a higher impact environmentally than intensive animal farming. Really?

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derxa · 16/07/2018 20:31
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LadyMonicaBaddingham · 16/07/2018 20:49

Vegan AMA... I won't really answer any of your valid questions, I just want to show off [hm]

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kikisparks · 16/07/2018 21:03

@LadyMonicaBaddingham that’s highly unfair she was here earlier today saying she’d answer the questions later. She will have a life and be busy on certain days!

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kikisparks · 16/07/2018 21:06

@derxa there’s no peer reviewed facts in that article it’s just one person (with a very biased viewpoint)’s opinion.

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pennycarbonara · 16/07/2018 21:19

I have, I read all this stuff when it was first published there too. I was going to include this further page of letters in my earlier post but figured it would be superfluous. It basically replies to points from the article you linked: www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/15/the-lake-district-is-indeed-a-sheepwrecked-landscape

In a way it comes down to one of the main ideological differences in environmentalism: the romantic and the love of traditions versus the technocratic. I tend to lean towards the former but consider it remiss not to be aware one is doing that with an understanding of information which can conflict with it. (Although the technocratic one is more commonly keen on human-led activity and preserving the environment for human benefit but here that's an exception, here it points to leaving nature to itself.)

Personally as I am pessimistic about what might happen to unfarmed land, I wonder if it might be better to keep some of it as it is so that it isn't just built on or used for other activities with a heavy level of human interference. It seems hard to imagine neoliberal government in a small country actually leaving it alone.)

There is also the question of whether one would like the UK to improve its food and produce self-sufficiency, and for that there would be an argument for continuing hill farming as well.

And in local politics and on a community basis, people's jobs and much loved family traditions are important, although this unfortunately isn't too likely to have an impact on government decisions if they decide they can't afford the subsidies after Brexit.

Here is some of the info from one of the earlier ones, but from the BBC if Monbiot is not an acceptable source (he does provide plenty of links to other sources, it's not just opinion):
www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-28858289

The meat industry accepts these figures sufficiently to use them in one of its own reports: beefandlamb.ahdb.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Change-in-the-Air.pdf

From a long discussion thread by scientists and the director of the Soil Association:

"hat early work suggested that for products like poultry and eggs, ghg emissions for organic were significantly higher than for non-organic (the same was assumed to be true for pigs). More recent Defra-supported research projects3 showed that greenhouse gas emissions for organic pigs or poultry are equivalent to non-organic free-range pig and poultry systems, per kg of production, although both free-range and organic have higher ghg emissions than non-organic intensive, indoor systems. These calculations did include the relevant IPCC factors for Land Use Change (LUC) attributable to soya production in Latin America – the source of most of the protein fed to non-organic UK pigs and poultry (and indeed dairy cows), but many earlier LCAs did not. Organic soya imported in to the UK does not usually come from Latin America, but will currently come with a high ghg footprint from transport."

I will admit I haven't had time this evening to look at some of these studies and check in which ones the following was taken into account re grazing and carbon sequestration:

"'The second most significant ghg emissions from farming come from methane – around 44% of farming’s emissions in the UK,13 and higher than that globally. Here, grass-fed livestock, particularly extensive beef and sheep, will have a significantly lower carbon footprint, if the carbon sequestered in permanent and semi-permanent, natural and semi-natural grazing land is taken in to account.14 In non-organic systems, the higher ghg emissions associated with cereal and protein feeds (typically wheat and soya) need to be added to the ghg emissions of methane from the animals themselves."

Another researcher added across two posts:

^"In my experience (my research focuses on modeling resource use per unit of food, specifically in the beef and dairy industries) the negative impacts of lower yields in organic livestock production outweigh the positive impacts of reduced inputs, certainly in terms of land use, water use and carbon footprint per kg of milk or meat. For example, with regards to carbon footprint, transport and cropping account for

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