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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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Grammarnut · 24/10/2026 22:57

Fantastic.

murasaki · 24/10/2026 22:56

CoolforKats · 24/10/2026 22:53

They are my own arguments. Just better written & historically researched. That you believe that means they must be AI is……bonkers.

You didn't write that screed of pomposity though, did you. You may agree with it but it's not your words. So, whose are they?

CoolforKats · 24/10/2026 22:54

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2026 22:49

I'm not reading all that.

Why? Afraid you might learn something that invalidates your world view?

Just who really is the 'no debate' crowd here?

CoolforKats · 24/10/2026 22:53

JanesLittleGirl · 24/10/2026 22:47

@CoolforKats Please, please, please present your own arguments or, if that is beyond you, at least attest the source of the AI generated material that you are quoting?

They are my own arguments. Just better written & historically researched. That you believe that means they must be AI is……bonkers.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 24/10/2026 22:52

Jesus. So many words.

It's not fucking hard.

Female people exist.

Whatever transwomen may be, they are not female.

So, either transwomen are "women" in which case "woman" is not the word for the half of humanity that are female and transwomen are not especially relevant to any discussion about the female half of humanity, nor any consideration of the type and form of any rights, protections and spaces the female half of humanity may need to support us with the consequences of being female...

or

"Woman" is the word for the half of humanity that are female, in which case transwomen are not "women", and transwomen are still not especially relevant to any discussion about the female half of humanity, nor any consideration of the type and form of any rights, protections and spaces the female half of humanity may need to support us with the consequences of being female.

That really is all there is. Any other point anyone tries to argue simply boils down to silencing and invisibilising the voices, perspectives, experiences and value of female people in our own right to priotise the voices, perspectives, experiences, and the value of male.

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2026 22:50

The pomposity makes my teeth hurt, for a start.

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2026 22:49

CoolforKats · 24/10/2026 22:36

Trade unions? Looks like its time for some more insights from our guest commenter:

"What cogent argument would that be, exactly? The one in which I subjected Rowling's essay to critical scrutiny and discovered that much of its supposedly formidable intellectual architecture consists of unsupported assertions, questionable historical interpretations and an extraordinary exercise in self-mythologising? Very well. Let's examine the evidence, shall we? First, the Supreme Court. Rowling celebrates the judgment of April 2025, having personally contributed £70,000 towards the litigation brought by For Women Scotland. The Court determined the meaning of sex, man and woman for the purposes of the Equality Act 2010. An important ruling, certainly, with significant legal consequences. What it did not do was adjudicate upon every philosophical, political and sociological question surrounding sex and gender. Yet Rowling folds this narrow legal determination into an altogether grander narrative about the vindication of her worldview. The distinction between what a judgment establishes and what someone wishes to infer from it is rather important. Second, the trade unions. This is where things become particularly interesting. Rowling cites genuine government statistics showing that trade union membership is disproportionately concentrated among graduates and relatively higher earners. From this, she constructs a theory in which union leaders have abandoned their historic responsibility to the working classes in favour of fashionable ideological commitments. Think about that reasoning for a moment. Apparently, acquiring a university degree or earning a respectable salary now places someone under suspicion of having abandoned their working-class interests. Never mind that nurses, teachers, social workers and numerous other public-sector professionals are required to obtain qualifications to perform jobs that are indispensable to the functioning of society. Never mind that having a degree does not magically exempt someone from exploitative employment practices, insecure housing, rising living costs or the need for collective bargaining. And never mind that working-class people themselves acquire degrees. The statistics establish the educational and financial characteristics of trade union members. They tell us precisely nothing about their attitudes towards transgender people. Rowling has identified a demographic correlation and invited her readers to accept an entirely separate ideological conclusion. That's an argument with a rather conspicuous hole in the middle. There's an additional irony here. Rowling herself attended university during an era when access to higher education was considerably more restricted than it is today. She has described her childhood as lower middle class, and she later experienced genuine poverty as a single mother. Those experiences deserve acknowledgement. But they confer no special authority to decide which contemporary working-class women are authentically representative of their class, or which trade unionists have betrayed it. Third, her excursion into civil rights history. Rowling presents the great social movements of the twentieth century as essentially grassroots struggles conducted by ordinary people against powerful institutions. Fair enough, as far as it goes. She then declares contemporary transgender activism to be the very opposite: an elite intellectual project imposed from above by academics, corporations and institutions. An extraordinary claim, given that organised transgender activism has roots stretching back decades, including people facing poverty, homelessness, police harassment and exclusion from mainstream gay liberation movements. Consider Sylvia Rivera, Marsha P. Johnson and the Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries. Apparently, their place in the history of grassroots civil rights organising has become inconvenient to this particular account. 1/2

Furthermore, almost every successful civil rights movement eventually acquired institutional allies, legal representation, academic advocates and political influence. That is frequently how campaigns achieve lasting legislative change. The existence of institutional support tells us remarkably little about whether the underlying demands are legitimate. Fourth, her treatment of evidence itself. Rowling makes sweeping assertions about transgender criminality and the supposed ideological capture of public institutions. These are serious claims concerning identifiable populations, public safety and the conduct of major organisations. They require serious evidence. Individual criminal cases establish that individuals have committed crimes. They cannot, by themselves, establish the prevalence of criminality across an entire population. Equally, the existence of employment disputes involving gender-critical beliefs establishes that such disputes exist. It does not automatically demonstrate that every institution concerned has been captured by an authoritarian ideology. One might reasonably expect someone presenting herself as a defender of objective reality to understand the distinction. She also reports changes in applications to her own legal fund as evidence that private businesses are increasingly accepting the Supreme Court's judgment while public bodies remain ideologically resistant. Where are the figures? How many applications? Over what period? What alternative explanations have been considered? We're offered a conclusion without the data necessary to evaluate it. And then, naturally, Orwell makes his entrance. The ultimate literary guarantor of objective reality, apparently. There is an irony in invoking Orwell as an unimpeachable defender of intellectual independence when he himself supplied the British Foreign Office with a list of suspected communist sympathisers in 1949. I don't particularly admire informing on one's fellow writers, although that historical episode does not invalidate his literary achievements. Which brings us back to the original problem. Rowling positions herself within a grand historical struggle in which she and those who agree with her are defending civilisation against an entrenched authoritarian orthodoxy. Feminists who disagree are betraying women. Trade unionists have abandoned the working classes. Academics are imposing fashionable theories. Human rights organisations have lost their principles. And the institutions that resist her preferred interpretation of events are evidence of precisely the ideological corruption she claims to be confronting. It is a remarkably convenient arrangement. Every disagreement becomes further evidence that her analysis is correct. Every institution that challenges her becomes another institution requiring correction. And throughout this entire performance, Rowling remains at the moral centre of events, dispensing judgments upon the political, intellectual and ethical qualifications of everybody else. All delivered with the solemn conviction of someone writing the definitive history of an epoch in which she is evidently destined to play the starring role. Now, you may agree with her conclusions. You're perfectly entitled to. There are legitimate disputes about safeguarding, freedom of belief, discrimination and the proper application of equality legislation. Rowling is equally entitled to express her opinions, finance litigation and advocate for women whose concerns she shares. What she is not entitled to is immunity from scrutiny of her reasoning. And what I find particularly amusing about your accusation of luxury beliefs is that you are deploying it in defence of a phenomenally wealthy woman who presumes to lecture trade unionists about authentic working-class solidarity. There is something almost exquisitely comic about a billionaire accusing nurses and teachers of ideological privilege because they've attended university. 2/3

So, by all means, challenge my argument. Identify a factual error. Question an inference. Produce evidence that supports an alternative interpretation. We might even have an interesting conversation. But declaring that something is fatuous nonsense does not demonstrate that it is. It merely establishes that you dislike it. And after several increasingly elaborate assessments of my motives, personality and psychological disposition, you've still managed to avoid addressing a single substantive criticism of Rowling's essay. For someone so terribly concerned about cogent arguments, you appear remarkably reluctant to make one."

I'm not reading all that.

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2026 22:49

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 24/10/2026 21:30

It's because they are men I imagine. I can't get over a female, black nurse being called a n**r (!!!) and yet the omnicause still goes in to bat for the trans, male rapist.

Edit: strange interaction between MN and asterisks, sorry

Edited

Astonishing, isnt it? She was attacked for being Christian. As if that is somehow worse than being a racist paedophile!

JanesLittleGirl · 24/10/2026 22:47

@CoolforKats Please, please, please present your own arguments or, if that is beyond you, at least attest the source of the AI generated material that you are quoting?

CoolforKats · 24/10/2026 22:36

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 24/10/2026 14:46

Additionally, her charge against the unions is spot on. I get the TRAs working in the NHS and education pushing their agenda religiously. I get the academics high on their supply of Marcuse, Foucault and Butler.
But what I don't get is how people running unions who are there to support working class women and have some say in Labour Party politics, have decided to tack to this creed.
The RCN would rather let Peggie, Mellie and the Darlington nurses burn in hell than defend them against an intemperate religion.
Even when the early unions and Labour Party came out of the proud Methodist tradition, there was more free speech and political discourse and dissent than there is today.
You could say the unions are right up there as most culpable organisations promoting this anti-humanitarian ethos, the ones in the NHS, and schools, by far the worst.
It's totally appropriate Rowling tore a big strip off them in her essay.

Edited

Trade unions? Looks like its time for some more insights from our guest commenter:

"What cogent argument would that be, exactly? The one in which I subjected Rowling's essay to critical scrutiny and discovered that much of its supposedly formidable intellectual architecture consists of unsupported assertions, questionable historical interpretations and an extraordinary exercise in self-mythologising? Very well. Let's examine the evidence, shall we? First, the Supreme Court. Rowling celebrates the judgment of April 2025, having personally contributed £70,000 towards the litigation brought by For Women Scotland. The Court determined the meaning of sex, man and woman for the purposes of the Equality Act 2010. An important ruling, certainly, with significant legal consequences. What it did not do was adjudicate upon every philosophical, political and sociological question surrounding sex and gender. Yet Rowling folds this narrow legal determination into an altogether grander narrative about the vindication of her worldview. The distinction between what a judgment establishes and what someone wishes to infer from it is rather important. Second, the trade unions. This is where things become particularly interesting. Rowling cites genuine government statistics showing that trade union membership is disproportionately concentrated among graduates and relatively higher earners. From this, she constructs a theory in which union leaders have abandoned their historic responsibility to the working classes in favour of fashionable ideological commitments. Think about that reasoning for a moment. Apparently, acquiring a university degree or earning a respectable salary now places someone under suspicion of having abandoned their working-class interests. Never mind that nurses, teachers, social workers and numerous other public-sector professionals are required to obtain qualifications to perform jobs that are indispensable to the functioning of society. Never mind that having a degree does not magically exempt someone from exploitative employment practices, insecure housing, rising living costs or the need for collective bargaining. And never mind that working-class people themselves acquire degrees. The statistics establish the educational and financial characteristics of trade union members. They tell us precisely nothing about their attitudes towards transgender people. Rowling has identified a demographic correlation and invited her readers to accept an entirely separate ideological conclusion. That's an argument with a rather conspicuous hole in the middle. There's an additional irony here. Rowling herself attended university during an era when access to higher education was considerably more restricted than it is today. She has described her childhood as lower middle class, and she later experienced genuine poverty as a single mother. Those experiences deserve acknowledgement. But they confer no special authority to decide which contemporary working-class women are authentically representative of their class, or which trade unionists have betrayed it. Third, her excursion into civil rights history. Rowling presents the great social movements of the twentieth century as essentially grassroots struggles conducted by ordinary people against powerful institutions. Fair enough, as far as it goes. She then declares contemporary transgender activism to be the very opposite: an elite intellectual project imposed from above by academics, corporations and institutions. An extraordinary claim, given that organised transgender activism has roots stretching back decades, including people facing poverty, homelessness, police harassment and exclusion from mainstream gay liberation movements. Consider Sylvia Rivera, Marsha P. Johnson and the Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries. Apparently, their place in the history of grassroots civil rights organising has become inconvenient to this particular account. 1/2

Furthermore, almost every successful civil rights movement eventually acquired institutional allies, legal representation, academic advocates and political influence. That is frequently how campaigns achieve lasting legislative change. The existence of institutional support tells us remarkably little about whether the underlying demands are legitimate. Fourth, her treatment of evidence itself. Rowling makes sweeping assertions about transgender criminality and the supposed ideological capture of public institutions. These are serious claims concerning identifiable populations, public safety and the conduct of major organisations. They require serious evidence. Individual criminal cases establish that individuals have committed crimes. They cannot, by themselves, establish the prevalence of criminality across an entire population. Equally, the existence of employment disputes involving gender-critical beliefs establishes that such disputes exist. It does not automatically demonstrate that every institution concerned has been captured by an authoritarian ideology. One might reasonably expect someone presenting herself as a defender of objective reality to understand the distinction. She also reports changes in applications to her own legal fund as evidence that private businesses are increasingly accepting the Supreme Court's judgment while public bodies remain ideologically resistant. Where are the figures? How many applications? Over what period? What alternative explanations have been considered? We're offered a conclusion without the data necessary to evaluate it. And then, naturally, Orwell makes his entrance. The ultimate literary guarantor of objective reality, apparently. There is an irony in invoking Orwell as an unimpeachable defender of intellectual independence when he himself supplied the British Foreign Office with a list of suspected communist sympathisers in 1949. I don't particularly admire informing on one's fellow writers, although that historical episode does not invalidate his literary achievements. Which brings us back to the original problem. Rowling positions herself within a grand historical struggle in which she and those who agree with her are defending civilisation against an entrenched authoritarian orthodoxy. Feminists who disagree are betraying women. Trade unionists have abandoned the working classes. Academics are imposing fashionable theories. Human rights organisations have lost their principles. And the institutions that resist her preferred interpretation of events are evidence of precisely the ideological corruption she claims to be confronting. It is a remarkably convenient arrangement. Every disagreement becomes further evidence that her analysis is correct. Every institution that challenges her becomes another institution requiring correction. And throughout this entire performance, Rowling remains at the moral centre of events, dispensing judgments upon the political, intellectual and ethical qualifications of everybody else. All delivered with the solemn conviction of someone writing the definitive history of an epoch in which she is evidently destined to play the starring role. Now, you may agree with her conclusions. You're perfectly entitled to. There are legitimate disputes about safeguarding, freedom of belief, discrimination and the proper application of equality legislation. Rowling is equally entitled to express her opinions, finance litigation and advocate for women whose concerns she shares. What she is not entitled to is immunity from scrutiny of her reasoning. And what I find particularly amusing about your accusation of luxury beliefs is that you are deploying it in defence of a phenomenally wealthy woman who presumes to lecture trade unionists about authentic working-class solidarity. There is something almost exquisitely comic about a billionaire accusing nurses and teachers of ideological privilege because they've attended university. 2/3

So, by all means, challenge my argument. Identify a factual error. Question an inference. Produce evidence that supports an alternative interpretation. We might even have an interesting conversation. But declaring that something is fatuous nonsense does not demonstrate that it is. It merely establishes that you dislike it. And after several increasingly elaborate assessments of my motives, personality and psychological disposition, you've still managed to avoid addressing a single substantive criticism of Rowling's essay. For someone so terribly concerned about cogent arguments, you appear remarkably reluctant to make one."

Wishesandhorses · 24/10/2026 22:12

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 24/10/2026 22:00

It's mainly out of context screenshots from X so far, so I don't see that being much help to anyone.

In a court case, it would immediately mean anyone else involved in the case would share the context; the evidence has been introduced and can be acted on. Bit of an own goal really.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 24/10/2026 22:03

It doesn't surprise me at all that it's that particular extremely misogynistic poster

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 24/10/2026 22:00

Wishesandhorses · 24/10/2026 21:55

I doubt it's occured that he is very helpfully sharing the key arguments in that case, from some of the most articulate women out there.

It's mainly out of context screenshots from X so far, so I don't see that being much help to anyone.

Wishesandhorses · 24/10/2026 21:55

I doubt it's occured that he is very helpfully sharing the key arguments in that case, from some of the most articulate women out there.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 24/10/2026 21:55

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 24/10/2026 21:30

It's because they are men I imagine. I can't get over a female, black nurse being called a n**r (!!!) and yet the omnicause still goes in to bat for the trans, male rapist.

Edit: strange interaction between MN and asterisks, sorry

Edited

This!! Why??!!

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 24/10/2026 21:45

One of our reddit brethren has started a subreddit today collecting wrongspeak from 'mostly people like Rowling, Bindel, Lineham etc'. He's already collected posts from Julie Bindel and Jo Bartosch. Apparently it's all going to be evidence for the ECtHR when it rides to the rescue and casts Terf Island into the abyss, or summat.
All the GC legal opinion I have seen is that ECtHR will do absolutely nowt. On the other hand, it keeps him busy. I'm pretty certain he used to post on here, maybe still does, so hopefully he'll have less time for that.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 24/10/2026 21:30

Imdunfer · 24/10/2026 20:07

And on top of they they have a hierarchy of marginalised groups.

So you will find full support for women wanting to wear a burkha, until such time as that woman says "but I can't swim if you let male bodied people in the changing room and pool" and the suddenly the group the left support is trans males.

Whether this is because they are a smaller group, a more fashionable group to support, or something else I've never understood. But the pattern repeats again and again.

It's because they are men I imagine. I can't get over a female, black nurse being called a n**r (!!!) and yet the omnicause still goes in to bat for the trans, male rapist.

Edit: strange interaction between MN and asterisks, sorry

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2026 21:29

I reckon it's as Wishes says upthread. As long as the marginalised group doesnt threaten to impinge on the Benevolent and Gracious, they get a warm feeling of pity and piety. As soon as the marginalised group looks at risk of becoming real people with real inner lives they become problematic.

The B&G want pets and toys. 'Protect the Dolls' is excruciatingly prescient.

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2026 21:23

Wishesandhorses · 24/10/2026 19:30

The left/omnicause movement only likes marginalised groups that stay nicely in their place, say nothing off message, don't expect to be seen as real people with real opinions, and fail to be nicely patronised and headpatted in the expected way. It's about the powerful and happy to be so very nicely being lady bountiful on their own terms in ways that are useful to them and their agenda. Hence the mask dropping in seconds if for example a disability, a faith, a culture, poverty/class or anything else is suddenly found to get in the way of a man from said powerful group doing what he wants to with them. Equally the loud ranting about the evils of colonialism while quite liking doing it in practice while they're the colonisers and the beneficiaries. All mouthing the virtuous words and liking the feelz with no actual integrity or commitment to values involved.

I remain incredibly disappointed to have learned this. But then Charles Dickens was taking the mickey out of people like this in his books 175 years ago. Plus ca change.

Edited

Spot on, unfortunately.

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 24/10/2026 20:17

Wishesandhorses · 24/10/2026 19:30

The left/omnicause movement only likes marginalised groups that stay nicely in their place, say nothing off message, don't expect to be seen as real people with real opinions, and fail to be nicely patronised and headpatted in the expected way. It's about the powerful and happy to be so very nicely being lady bountiful on their own terms in ways that are useful to them and their agenda. Hence the mask dropping in seconds if for example a disability, a faith, a culture, poverty/class or anything else is suddenly found to get in the way of a man from said powerful group doing what he wants to with them. Equally the loud ranting about the evils of colonialism while quite liking doing it in practice while they're the colonisers and the beneficiaries. All mouthing the virtuous words and liking the feelz with no actual integrity or commitment to values involved.

I remain incredibly disappointed to have learned this. But then Charles Dickens was taking the mickey out of people like this in his books 175 years ago. Plus ca change.

Edited

The Left's looking the other way on radical Islam is one of the genuine conundrums of modern times, in its way as preposterous as belief in trans ideology.
Can only imagine it comes from an atheistic worldview which hated the Christian Enlightenment West more than Islam, all the tropes that the left rails against ie colonialism, slavery is present in both religions historically, but it's our side that has to be most opposed.
In a world where the lived experience of brown people oppressed by white people is taken as gospel, the white Christian West always fails to the brown Islamic world.
Of course, as noted, the sympathy is 100% for the Burka wearing Muslim woman...until she objects to a transwoman in her changing room etc. Then she's as much the devil as the cisheteropatriarchal white male.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 24/10/2026 20:08

Imdunfer · 24/10/2026 20:07

And on top of they they have a hierarchy of marginalised groups.

So you will find full support for women wanting to wear a burkha, until such time as that woman says "but I can't swim if you let male bodied people in the changing room and pool" and the suddenly the group the left support is trans males.

Whether this is because they are a smaller group, a more fashionable group to support, or something else I've never understood. But the pattern repeats again and again.

Absolutely this

Imdunfer · 24/10/2026 20:07

Wishesandhorses · 24/10/2026 19:30

The left/omnicause movement only likes marginalised groups that stay nicely in their place, say nothing off message, don't expect to be seen as real people with real opinions, and fail to be nicely patronised and headpatted in the expected way. It's about the powerful and happy to be so very nicely being lady bountiful on their own terms in ways that are useful to them and their agenda. Hence the mask dropping in seconds if for example a disability, a faith, a culture, poverty/class or anything else is suddenly found to get in the way of a man from said powerful group doing what he wants to with them. Equally the loud ranting about the evils of colonialism while quite liking doing it in practice while they're the colonisers and the beneficiaries. All mouthing the virtuous words and liking the feelz with no actual integrity or commitment to values involved.

I remain incredibly disappointed to have learned this. But then Charles Dickens was taking the mickey out of people like this in his books 175 years ago. Plus ca change.

Edited

And on top of they they have a hierarchy of marginalised groups.

So you will find full support for women wanting to wear a burkha, until such time as that woman says "but I can't swim if you let male bodied people in the changing room and pool" and the suddenly the group the left support is trans males.

Whether this is because they are a smaller group, a more fashionable group to support, or something else I've never understood. But the pattern repeats again and again.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 24/10/2026 20:00

CoolforKats · 22/10/2026 00:23

Depends on the man. I was once hit by an enormous wave at the beach & landed in an old man's lap. It was embarrassing but hardly the same thing as a younger man.

😂
This is basically the entire plot of a Carry On film

Wishesandhorses · 24/10/2026 19:30

The left/omnicause movement only likes marginalised groups that stay nicely in their place, say nothing off message, don't expect to be seen as real people with real opinions, and fail to be nicely patronised and headpatted in the expected way. It's about the powerful and happy to be so very nicely being lady bountiful on their own terms in ways that are useful to them and their agenda. Hence the mask dropping in seconds if for example a disability, a faith, a culture, poverty/class or anything else is suddenly found to get in the way of a man from said powerful group doing what he wants to with them. Equally the loud ranting about the evils of colonialism while quite liking doing it in practice while they're the colonisers and the beneficiaries. All mouthing the virtuous words and liking the feelz with no actual integrity or commitment to values involved.

I remain incredibly disappointed to have learned this. But then Charles Dickens was taking the mickey out of people like this in his books 175 years ago. Plus ca change.

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 24/10/2026 19:22

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2026 19:16

It's depressing how every marginalised and oppressed group in the entire world is worth fighting for, except, apparently, women.

The "world is made up of men and support people (women)" is never more true than with "men (transwomen) and support people (transmaidens)"