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BiologicalRobot · Today 09:30

CoolforKats · 24/10/2026 22:36

Trade unions? Looks like its time for some more insights from our guest commenter:

"What cogent argument would that be, exactly? The one in which I subjected Rowling's essay to critical scrutiny and discovered that much of its supposedly formidable intellectual architecture consists of unsupported assertions, questionable historical interpretations and an extraordinary exercise in self-mythologising? Very well. Let's examine the evidence, shall we? First, the Supreme Court. Rowling celebrates the judgment of April 2025, having personally contributed £70,000 towards the litigation brought by For Women Scotland. The Court determined the meaning of sex, man and woman for the purposes of the Equality Act 2010. An important ruling, certainly, with significant legal consequences. What it did not do was adjudicate upon every philosophical, political and sociological question surrounding sex and gender. Yet Rowling folds this narrow legal determination into an altogether grander narrative about the vindication of her worldview. The distinction between what a judgment establishes and what someone wishes to infer from it is rather important. Second, the trade unions. This is where things become particularly interesting. Rowling cites genuine government statistics showing that trade union membership is disproportionately concentrated among graduates and relatively higher earners. From this, she constructs a theory in which union leaders have abandoned their historic responsibility to the working classes in favour of fashionable ideological commitments. Think about that reasoning for a moment. Apparently, acquiring a university degree or earning a respectable salary now places someone under suspicion of having abandoned their working-class interests. Never mind that nurses, teachers, social workers and numerous other public-sector professionals are required to obtain qualifications to perform jobs that are indispensable to the functioning of society. Never mind that having a degree does not magically exempt someone from exploitative employment practices, insecure housing, rising living costs or the need for collective bargaining. And never mind that working-class people themselves acquire degrees. The statistics establish the educational and financial characteristics of trade union members. They tell us precisely nothing about their attitudes towards transgender people. Rowling has identified a demographic correlation and invited her readers to accept an entirely separate ideological conclusion. That's an argument with a rather conspicuous hole in the middle. There's an additional irony here. Rowling herself attended university during an era when access to higher education was considerably more restricted than it is today. She has described her childhood as lower middle class, and she later experienced genuine poverty as a single mother. Those experiences deserve acknowledgement. But they confer no special authority to decide which contemporary working-class women are authentically representative of their class, or which trade unionists have betrayed it. Third, her excursion into civil rights history. Rowling presents the great social movements of the twentieth century as essentially grassroots struggles conducted by ordinary people against powerful institutions. Fair enough, as far as it goes. She then declares contemporary transgender activism to be the very opposite: an elite intellectual project imposed from above by academics, corporations and institutions. An extraordinary claim, given that organised transgender activism has roots stretching back decades, including people facing poverty, homelessness, police harassment and exclusion from mainstream gay liberation movements. Consider Sylvia Rivera, Marsha P. Johnson and the Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries. Apparently, their place in the history of grassroots civil rights organising has become inconvenient to this particular account. 1/2

Furthermore, almost every successful civil rights movement eventually acquired institutional allies, legal representation, academic advocates and political influence. That is frequently how campaigns achieve lasting legislative change. The existence of institutional support tells us remarkably little about whether the underlying demands are legitimate. Fourth, her treatment of evidence itself. Rowling makes sweeping assertions about transgender criminality and the supposed ideological capture of public institutions. These are serious claims concerning identifiable populations, public safety and the conduct of major organisations. They require serious evidence. Individual criminal cases establish that individuals have committed crimes. They cannot, by themselves, establish the prevalence of criminality across an entire population. Equally, the existence of employment disputes involving gender-critical beliefs establishes that such disputes exist. It does not automatically demonstrate that every institution concerned has been captured by an authoritarian ideology. One might reasonably expect someone presenting herself as a defender of objective reality to understand the distinction. She also reports changes in applications to her own legal fund as evidence that private businesses are increasingly accepting the Supreme Court's judgment while public bodies remain ideologically resistant. Where are the figures? How many applications? Over what period? What alternative explanations have been considered? We're offered a conclusion without the data necessary to evaluate it. And then, naturally, Orwell makes his entrance. The ultimate literary guarantor of objective reality, apparently. There is an irony in invoking Orwell as an unimpeachable defender of intellectual independence when he himself supplied the British Foreign Office with a list of suspected communist sympathisers in 1949. I don't particularly admire informing on one's fellow writers, although that historical episode does not invalidate his literary achievements. Which brings us back to the original problem. Rowling positions herself within a grand historical struggle in which she and those who agree with her are defending civilisation against an entrenched authoritarian orthodoxy. Feminists who disagree are betraying women. Trade unionists have abandoned the working classes. Academics are imposing fashionable theories. Human rights organisations have lost their principles. And the institutions that resist her preferred interpretation of events are evidence of precisely the ideological corruption she claims to be confronting. It is a remarkably convenient arrangement. Every disagreement becomes further evidence that her analysis is correct. Every institution that challenges her becomes another institution requiring correction. And throughout this entire performance, Rowling remains at the moral centre of events, dispensing judgments upon the political, intellectual and ethical qualifications of everybody else. All delivered with the solemn conviction of someone writing the definitive history of an epoch in which she is evidently destined to play the starring role. Now, you may agree with her conclusions. You're perfectly entitled to. There are legitimate disputes about safeguarding, freedom of belief, discrimination and the proper application of equality legislation. Rowling is equally entitled to express her opinions, finance litigation and advocate for women whose concerns she shares. What she is not entitled to is immunity from scrutiny of her reasoning. And what I find particularly amusing about your accusation of luxury beliefs is that you are deploying it in defence of a phenomenally wealthy woman who presumes to lecture trade unionists about authentic working-class solidarity. There is something almost exquisitely comic about a billionaire accusing nurses and teachers of ideological privilege because they've attended university. 2/3

So, by all means, challenge my argument. Identify a factual error. Question an inference. Produce evidence that supports an alternative interpretation. We might even have an interesting conversation. But declaring that something is fatuous nonsense does not demonstrate that it is. It merely establishes that you dislike it. And after several increasingly elaborate assessments of my motives, personality and psychological disposition, you've still managed to avoid addressing a single substantive criticism of Rowling's essay. For someone so terribly concerned about cogent arguments, you appear remarkably reluctant to make one."

Fucks sake. Please add fucking paragraphs. Then repost. Ta.

callmeLoretta1 · Today 09:20

CoolforKats · Yesterday 09:14

or b) that life experience should be allowed to shape how they view the world and, in this case, assess the risks and disadvantages caused by men trying to access women’s spaces.
Is this an accurate reading of your position?

Yes.

Are there areas where it is permissible for women to share their experience and knowledge, or is it only in relation to ‘trans rights’ that they should keep quiet and put up?

I never suggested they shouldn't. I simply said they as in the Gender critical movement don't get to speak on behalf of all women as if we agree when we clearly don't.

With that commonality and history comes shared experiences that are familiar to more women than not.

Like JKR your'e conveniently making the false equivalence of women's experiences with cis men & trans women. Clearly the women who don't agree with JKR aren't hence they don't clock trans women as a risk.

Like JKR says experience matters but not quite in the way she imagines it does.

Edited

Like JKR your'e conveniently making the false equivalence of women's experiences with cis men & trans women. Clearly the women who don't agree with JKR aren't hence they don't clock trans women as a risk.
Like JKR says experience matters but not quite in the way she imagines it does.

Like most MRAs/TRAs, you are making the false equivalence that a male is the same as a woman because he says he is a woman. Transwomen are male. Men. Male with penis and testicles. They are indistinguishable from all other males. They have male socialisation, male privilege and absolutely nothing remotely whatsoever in common with actual females.

UnaPersson · Today 09:18

Good for you, that must have been unnerving as well as sad. As for him, maybe, just maybe it was the shock back into the real world and he went away and had a think about changing the road he was going down. 🤔

The way they go to physically threatening behaviour is very, very not female.

Edit: somehow lost the quote from @cryupmykingdom oops.

cryupmykingdom · Today 09:13

UnaPersson · Today 06:25

Not to derail the thread, but I'm starting to suspect that 'a fat bloke with long hair' describes half of Reddit these days. Even r/aspergirls has many TiMs.

Edited

It was sad when I realised the guy had come all that way . . You know, when someone is living very much 'in their own head', starts blurting, and everyone else is just staring at them. Felt sorry for him at the same time as realising something needed to be done or next time it might be someone more malicious. I acted & lets just say it won't happen again.

UnaPersson · Today 06:25

cryupmykingdom · Yesterday 16:12

Was a 'transwoman' aka fat bloke with long hair, who came into the pub (not my house) and there were a few of us there. So he couldn't do much except scream, then stalked off when it became obvious he wasn't welcome. It's been 'dealt with' now, but even so, Reddit banned the account I had at that time, a few months later.

Not to derail the thread, but I'm starting to suspect that 'a fat bloke with long hair' describes half of Reddit these days. Even r/aspergirls has many TiMs.

cryupmykingdom · Yesterday 16:12

Was a 'transwoman' aka fat bloke with long hair, who came into the pub (not my house) and there were a few of us there. So he couldn't do much except scream, then stalked off when it became obvious he wasn't welcome. It's been 'dealt with' now, but even so, Reddit banned the account I had at that time, a few months later.

murasaki · Yesterday 16:10

I only post on my football teams sub, and that's great re match updates given I don't have TNT. The only way you'd get banned is to question Unai Emery 😂

UnaPersson · Yesterday 15:57

cryupmykingdom · Yesterday 15:51

The situation on Reddit is in flux. TiM moderators are still a thing because Reddit can't run without them.

Some more obnoxious ones have been let go, including one who turned up (from the US) in Hawkes Bay when I was living there, to have a go at me personally.

However, tho they tolerate some gender critical subs, due to the plummeting popularity of gender ideology, they are always looking for excuses to boot people for things like so-called 'misgendering' and nearly anything can count as 'spreading hate'.

In the end, one's survival on Reddit is a day to day thing. I keep ahead of their systems - it's nearly impossible to keep you out if you set your mind to it, but the quality of the discussions is such that I may drop Reddit next year.

Edited

OMG they came to your house?! How did they get your address? That is harassment. What happened?

Hard agree on the quality of the content. Lot of bots and AI these days, but the medical subs and hobby subs are kind of still OK.

UnaPersson · Yesterday 15:52

GreyskySexRealistsky · Yesterday 15:48

Yep, definitely very surprising! TRAs like to say it's just Mumsnet with these views, turns out it really isn't.

Telegraph and the dreaded Daily Mail are very TWAM too although I'm not sure if that's always been the case as I didn't used to read them.

I was so happy to find Mumsnet as it was the only website where people were allowed to say the emporer was wearing no clothes*

*i.e. is a bloke in a dress.

cryupmykingdom · Yesterday 15:51

The situation on Reddit is in flux. TiM moderators are still a thing because Reddit can't run without them.

Some more obnoxious ones have been let go, including one who turned up (from the US) in Hawkes Bay when I was living there, to have a go at me personally.

However, tho they tolerate some gender critical subs, due to the plummeting popularity of gender ideology, they are always looking for excuses to boot people for things like so-called 'misgendering' and nearly anything can count as 'spreading hate'.

In the end, one's survival on Reddit is a day to day thing. I keep ahead of their systems - it's nearly impossible to keep you out if you set your mind to it, but the quality of the discussions is such that I may drop Reddit next year.

GreyskySexRealistsky · Yesterday 15:48

UnaPersson · Yesterday 15:43

I'm not sure, but here's hoping!

r/fourthwavewomen is similar, just discovered to much surprise. Interesting point about TiM mods on Reddit taking over the feminist subs and deleting and banning women's posts, now ousted (hopefully).

Yep, definitely very surprising! TRAs like to say it's just Mumsnet with these views, turns out it really isn't.

GreyskySexRealistsky · Yesterday 15:45

UnaPersson · Yesterday 15:11

If anyone's a Redditor, the subreddit r/BlockedandReported has quite a bit to say on the subject.

Edited

Just saw this and was genuinely surprised by the comments:

https://www.reddit.com/r/BlockedAndReported/comments/1xf3ruh/jk_rowlings_update_on_the_essay_that_started_the/

UnaPersson · Yesterday 15:43

SidewaysOtter · Yesterday 15:38

Blimey, I thought anything pro-JKR or pro-women's rights got nuked on Reddit. Is the tide turning or is this subreddit an outlying corner of sanity?

I'm not sure, but here's hoping!

r/fourthwavewomen is similar, just discovered to much surprise. Interesting point about TiM mods on Reddit taking over the feminist subs and deleting and banning women's posts, now ousted (hopefully).

SidewaysOtter · Yesterday 15:38

Blimey, I thought anything pro-JKR or pro-women's rights got nuked on Reddit. Is the tide turning or is this subreddit an outlying corner of sanity?

UnaPersson · Yesterday 15:11

If anyone's a Redditor, the subreddit r/BlockedandReported has quite a bit to say on the subject.

Datun · Yesterday 14:24

You know there's no actual argument to be had when the main disagreement with JKRs long essay is that she didn't put the words 'almost all' in front of the word 'women'.

Wotevah 🤷‍♀️

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 12:51

CoolforKats · Yesterday 09:14

or b) that life experience should be allowed to shape how they view the world and, in this case, assess the risks and disadvantages caused by men trying to access women’s spaces.
Is this an accurate reading of your position?

Yes.

Are there areas where it is permissible for women to share their experience and knowledge, or is it only in relation to ‘trans rights’ that they should keep quiet and put up?

I never suggested they shouldn't. I simply said they as in the Gender critical movement don't get to speak on behalf of all women as if we agree when we clearly don't.

With that commonality and history comes shared experiences that are familiar to more women than not.

Like JKR your'e conveniently making the false equivalence of women's experiences with cis men & trans women. Clearly the women who don't agree with JKR aren't hence they don't clock trans women as a risk.

Like JKR says experience matters but not quite in the way she imagines it does.

Edited

I’m speaking on behalf of women as a sex. I respect the rights of other women to have opinions that differ from my own on this and many other topics. But I don’t have to think they’re right.

StealthTroublemaker · Yesterday 12:35

Keeptoiletssafe · Yesterday 11:55

Exactly. That’s all you’ve got.

I think @CoolforKats is saying he’s a wee bit tired from all the shouting into the void, and as it’s very late in the Southern Hemisphere he’s off for a little sleep.

JamesKirkupReviewWritersFund · Yesterday 12:15

CoolforKats · Yesterday 11:47

😴

KTS has saved lives - literally in person and regularly through her research, passion and determination to ensure safety in toilets is paramount. That all you can muster in response is a sneery use of an emoji doesn't shock me in the least, in fact, in doing so you just remind us of your inadequacies.

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 12:10

CoolforKats · Yesterday 11:47

😴

I just don't think that argument will convince the ECHR of anything, and that is your problem, not JKR.

cryupmykingdom · Yesterday 12:02

CoolforKats · Yesterday 11:47

😴

What's the biological sex of the cat that's got your tongue ?😅

akkakk · Yesterday 11:58

CoolforKats · Yesterday 11:47

😴

That is an impressive response - in one character you have told us so much about you and your arguments...

my commiserations.

cryupmykingdom · Yesterday 11:56

MoistVonL · Yesterday 10:09

Women, not being a monolith of experience & understanding...

You're nearly there, Kool. You might even say women differ in every possible way but one - United by our shared biology.

Because that's it. That's the only thing women from the paleolithic, 10th century Japan, the Amazon rain forest, the court of Louis IVX, my daughter and Judith flaming Butler have that united them. Our female biology. Or our sex, to put it bluntly.

And no transwoman ever will.

All of these discussions end up here, as to what unites women, and simultaneously means no so-called 'transwoman' can ever enter the fold.

Since they don't have anything of substance, the TRAs wander away, and come back to try their luck later when they think the coast is clear🙄

It must be really difficult being lumbered with the dumbest ideology ever.

Keeptoiletssafe · Yesterday 11:55

CoolforKats · Yesterday 11:47

😴

Exactly. That’s all you’ve got.

CoolforKats · Yesterday 11:47

Keeptoiletssafe · Yesterday 10:58

It sums up all these threads that when it comes to the practicalities, @CoolforKats isn't able to answer. It’s all poncy language and no substance.

I have looked at everyone views on this - when it comes down to practical details on how to deal with ‘inclusive’ ie free for all toilets, it becomes ludicrous. One way mirrors, weighted floors etc.

We need simple, functional, safe, hygienic so easy to clean toilets that are cost effective and have a high turnover in the shortest time. That is cubicles (with door gaps over and under the doors and partitions as permitted in single sex environments) in a separate sex environment.

Going back to JKR and her discussion on privileged beliefs it also applies to toilet design. The builders tend to think along health and safety lines as do the Health and Safety Executive and Building Safety Regulator. It’s certain trendy architects with an agenda, and people with no experience but with an agenda who do not follow regulations and reinvent toilet designs.

Edited

😴