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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hampstead Ponds update today

427 replies

WallaceinAnderland · 04/06/2026 19:25

I'm not sure that this is in line with the law.

They need to label all 3 ponds as mixed sex.

https://news.cityoflondon.gov.uk/hampstead-heaths-bathing-ponds-to-remain-trans-inclusive-spaces-as-city-corporation-agrees-future-access-policy/

OP posts:
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8
Cailin66 · 05/06/2026 07:15

TransParentlyAnnoyed · 05/06/2026 00:36

You do know swimming pools in every twin and city are mixed-gender, right?

The ponds are an oddity, and residents are quite happy to let the very few trans women turning up swim where they want. Maybe respect their choice?

Hoaxer thing is quite funny, well done. As if any man ever needs to dress up to assault women.

The bigger issue is lack of access to any wild swimming across London - these are the last swimming ponds left there, and confined to a well-off area.

Working-class women and girls across the country need greater access to cheap, outdoor, safe swimming areas - as shown by all the deaths last week.

In the UK do public swimming pools often have closed sessions that are women only? Because some women are forbidden by their religion (eg Islam) to be in close proximity to males.

ElenOfTheWays · 05/06/2026 04:13

SomeGarlic · 04/06/2026 21:06

Extremely long post warning.

The SC judgement is a beautiful work, clarifying - NOT changing - the Equality Act 2010. Below are some extracts to illustrate the logic, especially where it is being repeatedly and obstinately misinterpreted by transgenderists.

134. First, to demonstrate less favourable treatment in subsection (1) an actual or hypothetical comparator is often relied on to demonstrate that a person without the relevant protected characteristic was or would have been treated more favourably by person A. Such a comparator (actual or hypothetical) must be a person who does not share B’s protected characteristic. Section 23(1) makes clear that, apart from the protected characteristic, there must be “no material difference between the circumstances relating to each case” when determining whether B has been treated less favourably. Accordingly, where sex is the protected characteristic, a woman relying on section 13(1) must compare her treatment with the treatment that was or would have been afforded to a man whose Page 40 circumstances are not materially different to hers; in other words, a similarly situated man. Where gender reassignment is the protected characteristic, in the case of a male person proposing to or undergoing gender reassignment to the opposite sex, the correct comparator is likely to be a man without the protected characteristic of gender reassignment and similarly for a woman (although there may be situations where the comparator’s sex is immaterial to the comparison). See for example, Croft v Royal Mail Group plc [2003] EWCA Civ 1045, [2003] ICR 1425 at para 74.

A male person proposing gender reassignment is NOT discriminated against by exclusion from the Ladies' Pond because, like all other men, he may use the Men's and the Mixed Ponds.

142. The EA 2010 is also concerned to prohibit disguised discrimination which operates at a group level. This is important as Michael Foran explains (in an article entitled “Defining Sex in Law” (2025) 141 LQR 76, 91–92:

“Arguments concerning the definition of a protected characteristic are never simply manifestations of individual claims. They are always group orientated. The claim that one is a woman is a claim to be included within a particular category of persons and to be excluded from another. It is also a claim to include some persons and to exclude other persons within the group that one is a part of. This matters especially for aspects of the Equality Act 2010 which require duty-bearers to be cognisant of how their conduct might affect those who share a protected characteristic or where there is an obligation to account for the distinct needs and interests of those who share a particular characteristic.”

In allowing men to use the Ladies' Pond - and/or women to use the Men's Pond - the committee must consider its duties to users having the protected characteristic of sex who, for religious or other reasons, cannot share an unclothed environment with members of the opposite sex.

144. First, the provisions concerning indirect discrimination are specifically directed at the problem of group discrimination and their purpose is to counter group (not individual) disadvantage. They operate where an apparently neutral policy or practice is applied generally to everyone but produces a disproportionate disadvantage for a particular group with a shared protected characteristic. Indirect discrimination is defined by sections 19 and/or 19A of the EA 2010. Section 19(1) and (2) provide that indirect discrimination occurs when a person (A) applies to another (B) a “provision, criterion or practice” (generally referred to as a “PCP”) if:

“(a) A applies, or would apply, it to persons with whom B does not share the characteristic,

"(b) it puts, or would put, persons with whom B shares the characteristic at a particular disadvantage when compared with persons with whom B does not share it,

"(c) it puts, or would put, B at that disadvantage, and Page 44 (d) A cannot show it to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.”

If you allow people with the characteristic of gender reassignment into all three ponds, you have privileged them in comparison to people with the characteristic of sex, who may only use two. This is indirect discrimination. It's also direct discrimination in light of 134 above.

168. Section 11 of the EA 2010 provides: “In relation to the protected characteristic of sex—

(a) a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a man or to a woman;

(b) a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to persons of the same sex.”

169. The only other guidance as to the meaning of these expressions is given in the general interpretation provisions in section 212(1) which provide:

“In this Act … ‘man’ means a male of any age; … ‘woman’ means a female of any age.”

170. In other words, what is made unlawful is sex discrimination against women and men; and the provision in section 212(1) ensures that boys and girls are protected against discrimination connected to their sex.

Speaks for itself. The committee seems to have disregarded its duty to ensure it doesn't discriminate against men or women.

173. Moreover, it makes no sense for conduct under the EA 2010 in relation to sex based rights and protections to be regulated on a practical day-to-day basis by reference to categories that can only be ascertained by knowledge of who possesses a (confidential) certificate. Some of the practical consequences of a certificated sex definition are described in the case presented by Sex Matters. They state that uncertainty and ambiguity about the circumstances in which it is legitimate to treat (biological) women and girls as a distinct group whose interests need to be considered and protected, have the effect that many organisations now feel inhibited in doing so.

175. It is significant, however, that there is only one definition of sex. The concept of sex is of foundational importance in the EA 2010. The words sex and woman appear across different parts of the Act and in many sections. It would be surprising if the words sex and woman were intended to have different meanings in different sections or parts of the EA 2010, as the Inner House concluded, especially given the definitions of “man” and “woman” in section 212(1) of the EA 2010. Indeed, it would offend against the principle of legal certainty and the need for a meaning which is constant and predictable, especially in the context of an Act with the purposes we have identified, and which has such practical everyday consequences for so many individuals and organisations in society.

185. There are also provisions in the EA 2010 that allow for differential treatment afforded by service-providers and others to protect the health and safety of women generally and pregnant women in particular. In other words, what would otherwise amount to unlawful discrimination in regulated activities is not unlawful by virtue of these provisions.

The court goes on to show that discrimination is lawful if it favours the protection of women, even if it might be unlawful when applied to a different group.

It then explains why the Scottish government was wrong to introduce the concept of variable definitions of sex. As above, this offends against the principle of legal clarity.

199. Accordingly, the EA 2010 recognises sex and gender reassignment as distinct and separate bases for discrimination and inequality, giving separate protection to each. Those who have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment are referred to as “a transsexual person” (section 7(3)(a)), not as a “trans” woman or man. There is no distinction drawn in section 7 or elsewhere between those for whom the relevant process would involve reassignment male to female or female to male. In other words, it is the attribute of proposing to undergo, undergoing or having undergone a process (or part of Page 60 a process) for the purpose of reassignment, which is the common factor, not the sex into which the person is reassigned.

This is important, and needs repetition because it is being persistently flouted. Discrimination against a 'trans' person is discrimination against them for being 'trans', not discrimination against the sex into which they identify. They cannot suffer sex discrimination against their 'assigned' sex, because they do not meet the criteria specified in 168, 169, 170.

They can, however, claim discrimination against their perceived sex:

251. Take, for example, a trans woman who applies for a job as a sales representative and the sales manager thinks that she is a biological woman because of her appearance and does not offer her the job even though she performed best at interview and gives the job instead to a biological man. She would have a claim for direct discrimination because of her perceived sex and her comparator would be someone who is not perceived to be a woman. The fact that she is not a biological woman should make no difference to her claim, which would be treated in the same way as a direct discrimination claim made by a biological woman based on the sex of the complainant herself.

256. Applied, for example, to the case of a trans woman with a GRC, who presents as a woman at work and is perceived as a woman, and whose trans status and GRC are confidential: if a colleague harasses her (by making sexualised references to what she is wearing, or degrading comments about how she looks) she can bring a claim for harassment related to sex. She can also bring a harassment claim related to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment but may not wish to do so.

This is long section about remedies available to 'trans women' relating to discrimination against their perceived sex. It treats entirely with situations in which the person is clothed, and may be perceived as a female. Hampstead Ponds involve swimming and sunbathing naked, with changing facilities also involving communal nudity. Vanishingly few 'trans women' could be perceived as female without clothes on - and, if they were, it's unlikely they'd be challenged. Ditto for 'trans men' using the Men's Pond.

There's a lot more very sensible commentary before the above, on collisions between acquired gender and biological sex, with special mention for lesbians, who cannot be forced by the law to include opposite-sex 'women' in their same-sex gatherings. Circumstances such as medical provisions and communal changing or sleeping facilities, sports, single-sex charities and data collection are also examined with detailed logic.

The overriding principle when applying the EA2010 is whether an inclusion or exclusion is proportionate and reasonable. It can't be proportionate or reasonable to include people of one protected characteristic (reassignment) in all provisions, where this inclusion forces the exclusion of others of another protected characteristic (religion, age, disability or, indeed sex) on privacy & dignity grounds.

If this post wasn't long enough for you, here's the full text: supremecourt.uk/uploads/uksc_2024_0042_judgment_aea6c48cee.pdf

The government should have asked you to write the guidance. That was clear as crystal. Thank you

SomeGarlic · 05/06/2026 03:52

Yes, @MyAmpleSheep, quite!

Have done a bit more gardening for Sex Matters to quiet this high-profile pettiness for good.

MyAmpleSheep · 05/06/2026 03:39

SomeGarlic · 05/06/2026 03:02

a man denied entry to the women’s pond is denied the opportunity to associate with his female friends there

He and his female friends have the opportunity to associate at the mixed pond - and at all the other places where men and women associate!

But his being there denies all women the opportunity to swim and sunbathe in a female-only environment.

The Al Hijra faith school one was pretty strange. It hinged on the school being co-educational, even though girls and boys used different corridors, classrooms, playgrounds, etc. It basically operated as two single-sex schools on the same site - this was also normal for English schools until somewhere around WW2. My junior school still had the girls' and boys' entrances though, by then, we could use either.

Single sex schools are not illegal, so Al Hijra's split site was the confounding factor.

It doesn't at all reflect the Hampstead situation as there's already a mixed pool.

I think we may be arguing the same point.

The TRA talking point at the moment seems to be that the provision of a mixed pond cures the discrimination inherent in men+trans-identifying women to one pond and women+trans-identifying men to the other.

I don't think it does. Men who are forbidden to swim with their female friends in the women's (+ trans-identifying men) pond are still discriminated against, even if they all could go to the mixed pond to swim together. The only way for that not to be unlawful is for all men to be excluded (because that is explicitly ok in the act.)

SomeGarlic · 05/06/2026 03:02

MyAmpleSheep · 05/06/2026 02:42

In Al Hijra, it was held by the Court of Appeal (think) that separate is discriminatory, even where equal provision is made for each sex. The argument went that a girl (it was about strict sex segregation in a school) was prevented from associating with the boys from whom she was segregated, a detriment to which she would not have been subject had she been a boy.

Equal discrimination against each sex is still unlawful, in other words.

I don’t think that argument works well for toilets as they aren’t places where people go to associate with each other. But it does apply very well to the Hampstead ponds: a man denied entry to the women’s pond is denied the opportunity to associate with his female friends there, a detriment which cannot be litigated only if a strict sex segregation is maintained.

@TransParentlyAnnoyed It’s up to Parliament to change the law if the law needs to be changed. It’s not open for individuals or organizations to obey only the laws they agree with.

Edited

a man denied entry to the women’s pond is denied the opportunity to associate with his female friends there

He and his female friends have the opportunity to associate at the mixed pond - and at all the other places where men and women associate!

But his being there denies all women the opportunity to swim and sunbathe in a female-only environment.

The Al Hijra faith school one was pretty strange. It hinged on the school being co-educational, even though girls and boys used different corridors, classrooms, playgrounds, etc. It basically operated as two single-sex schools on the same site - this was also normal for English schools until somewhere around WW2. My junior school still had the girls' and boys' entrances though, by then, we could use either.

Single sex schools are not illegal, so Al Hijra's split site was the confounding factor.

It doesn't at all reflect the Hampstead situation as there's already a mixed pool.

MyAmpleSheep · 05/06/2026 02:42

PencilsInSpace · 05/06/2026 02:32

Thinking about this more, I bet they'll try to rely on that bit out of the failed GLP judicial review against EHRC that JM tried to spin as a 'win'.

From para 61 of the judgment:

In a case where the provision of separate lavatories labelled male and female was materially similar in terms of the extent of the provision, location, and so on, I consider there would, in principle, be scope for a strong argument that a rule or practice that permitted trans women to use the “female” lavatory but required other biological men to use the male lavatory would comprise different but not less favourable treatment on grounds of sex.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/good-law-project-EHRC-AC-2025-1953-judgment-13Feb26.pdf

They will argue that because there is a men's pond, it's not direct discrimination to exclude men without the PC of gender reassignment from the ladies' pond while admitting men with the PC of GR.

This ignores that the judge's comment was 'obiter' (in passing) and so does not create a legal precedent. It also says nothing about claims that could be brought by female users of the ponds for indirect discrimination and harassment.

Lots of discussion on this thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5489699-glp-v-ehrc-judgement-is-coming-tomorrow?page=4&reply=150499153

In Al Hijra, it was held by the Court of Appeal (think) that separate is discriminatory, even where equal provision is made for each sex. The argument went that a girl (it was about strict sex segregation in a school) was prevented from associating with the boys from whom she was segregated, a detriment to which she would not have been subject had she been a boy.

Equal discrimination against each sex is still unlawful, in other words.

I don’t think that argument works well for toilets as they aren’t places where people go to associate with each other. But it does apply very well to the Hampstead ponds: a man denied entry to the women’s pond is denied the opportunity to associate with his female friends there, a detriment which cannot be litigated only if a strict sex segregation is maintained.

@TransParentlyAnnoyed It’s up to Parliament to change the law if the law needs to be changed. It’s not open for individuals or organizations to obey only the laws they agree with.

TransParentlyAnnoyed · 05/06/2026 02:34

MyAmpleSheep · 05/06/2026 00:45

The ponds are an oddity, and residents are quite happy to let the very few trans women turning up swim where they want. Maybe respect their choice?

Anti-discrimination law is in place to prevent unlawful discrimination even when "everyone" appears to agree it's a wonderful idea. If it's not lawful, then it doesn't matter whether everyone consents to it or nobody consents to it. It's still not lawful.

Edited

Something being lawful doesn't mean it's correct, or reflect what people want, certainly. Section 28 was lawful.

Women tend to stand together against pointless, petty bigotry. We know that stopping fully-clothes trans women piping meringues with their friends isn't feminism, or safeguarding. Nor is going on about a pond.

PencilsInSpace · 05/06/2026 02:32

PencilsInSpace · 04/06/2026 21:31

We have continued to listen and take detailed legal advice throughout this process.

Who did they take legal advice from? The fox batterer? 😬

Thinking about this more, I bet they'll try to rely on that bit out of the failed GLP judicial review against EHRC that JM tried to spin as a 'win'.

From para 61 of the judgment:

In a case where the provision of separate lavatories labelled male and female was materially similar in terms of the extent of the provision, location, and so on, I consider there would, in principle, be scope for a strong argument that a rule or practice that permitted trans women to use the “female” lavatory but required other biological men to use the male lavatory would comprise different but not less favourable treatment on grounds of sex.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/good-law-project-EHRC-AC-2025-1953-judgment-13Feb26.pdf

They will argue that because there is a men's pond, it's not direct discrimination to exclude men without the PC of gender reassignment from the ladies' pond while admitting men with the PC of GR.

This ignores that the judge's comment was 'obiter' (in passing) and so does not create a legal precedent. It also says nothing about claims that could be brought by female users of the ponds for indirect discrimination and harassment.

Lots of discussion on this thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5489699-glp-v-ehrc-judgement-is-coming-tomorrow?page=4&reply=150499153

ElenOfTheWays · 05/06/2026 02:08

rubyslippers · 04/06/2026 19:34

Wouldn’t trans inclusive be male pond, female pond and third space for trans people

Yes its the usual (deliberate?) misunderstanding of what inclusivity means. A place for everyone NOT everyone needs to be in the same place.

SomeGarlic · 05/06/2026 01:13

MyAmpleSheep · 04/06/2026 23:57

You are correct. Different rules for services open to the public (like the ponds) vs. private clubs (associations.)

For services: you cannot have single PC services - except for some very limited exceptions like single sex where the other sex doesn't need the service, or separate sex where members of one sex could reasonably object to the presence of the other.

To make this more concrete: a bakery serving women only is not legal. A club for women only, is.

Edited

exceptions like single sex ... where members of one sex could reasonably object to the presence of the other.

Lounging around a pond in the nude would constitute a situation where one sex could reasonably object to the presence of the other.

In fact, swimming in swimsuits at a normal pool is also such a situation for many women - which is why most public pools have women-only sessions quite legally.

WallaceinAnderland · 05/06/2026 01:12

You can't have 'women and transwomen' because the equality act says transwomen are biological men.

So 'women and transwomen' equals 'biological women and biological men'

Ergo mixed sex.

OP posts:
ReturnOfTheReal · 05/06/2026 01:11

That survey is laughable and not at all representative of the population of London. It was obviously brigaded by TRA activists.

Apparently of the 38,000:

38.5% of respondents identified as heterosexual / straight, 23% identified
as bisexual or pansexual, 13% identified as Queer, 11% identified as gay, 9.5%
identified as lesbian, with 4% preferring to self-describe their sexuality.

Plus as it was online, anyone from anywhere could fill it in. They didn't verify that people lived where they said they did so for all we know it could have been a bunch of Americans using VPNs.

https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/assets/Green-Spaces/Ponds-Consultation-Report.pdf

MyAmpleSheep · 05/06/2026 00:45

TransParentlyAnnoyed · 05/06/2026 00:36

You do know swimming pools in every twin and city are mixed-gender, right?

The ponds are an oddity, and residents are quite happy to let the very few trans women turning up swim where they want. Maybe respect their choice?

Hoaxer thing is quite funny, well done. As if any man ever needs to dress up to assault women.

The bigger issue is lack of access to any wild swimming across London - these are the last swimming ponds left there, and confined to a well-off area.

Working-class women and girls across the country need greater access to cheap, outdoor, safe swimming areas - as shown by all the deaths last week.

The ponds are an oddity, and residents are quite happy to let the very few trans women turning up swim where they want. Maybe respect their choice?

Anti-discrimination law is in place to prevent unlawful discrimination even when "everyone" appears to agree it's a wonderful idea. If it's not lawful, then it doesn't matter whether everyone consents to it or nobody consents to it. It's still not lawful.

TransParentlyAnnoyed · 05/06/2026 00:37

*town, apologies. Spellchecker is not my drones.

TransParentlyAnnoyed · 05/06/2026 00:36

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 04/06/2026 19:52

Interesting... yes, how will they know which men are trans-identified and which aren't? What about hoaxer-gender? Will they rely on the style of the cozzies?

Edited

You do know swimming pools in every twin and city are mixed-gender, right?

The ponds are an oddity, and residents are quite happy to let the very few trans women turning up swim where they want. Maybe respect their choice?

Hoaxer thing is quite funny, well done. As if any man ever needs to dress up to assault women.

The bigger issue is lack of access to any wild swimming across London - these are the last swimming ponds left there, and confined to a well-off area.

Working-class women and girls across the country need greater access to cheap, outdoor, safe swimming areas - as shown by all the deaths last week.

MyAmpleSheep · 04/06/2026 23:57

moto748e · 04/06/2026 23:53

I'm sure that's true, my impression was that it's a bit different with a private club or association like those examples, whereas The Ponds were open to the general public, and subject to different rules. Or am I wrong about that?

You are correct. Different rules for services open to the public (like the ponds) vs. private clubs (associations.)

For services: you cannot have single PC services - except for some very limited exceptions like single sex where the other sex doesn't need the service, or separate sex where members of one sex could reasonably object to the presence of the other.

To make this more concrete: a bakery serving women only is not legal. A club for women only, is.

moto748e · 04/06/2026 23:53

VerityUnreasonble · 04/06/2026 23:26

I am perhaps, stupid. But my understanding of the two protected characteristics thing was that it was you could could have a group / service etc. specifically for people that shared 2 (or more) PCs not that you could "and" them?

So a "Roman Catholic women's centre" = fine
Or a "Pregnant Jewish lesbian club" = that's ok

But you can't have a "Roman Catholics and Women's Group" and only exclude non Catholic men because you'd have no reasonable grounds to do so given you're already inviting both men and people who aren't Catholic?

I'm sure that's true, my impression was that it's a bit different with a private club or association like those examples, whereas The Ponds were open to the general public, and subject to different rules. Or am I wrong about that?

MyAmpleSheep · 04/06/2026 23:51

KnottyAuty · 04/06/2026 22:34

I think this seems to be what they are attempting.

It is one of the edits which was added by Bridget Phillipson to the updated EHRC Guidance between September 2025 and May 2026. It is not in the current version - from 2022(?) And may never make it through the 40 days of prayers in the Commons, for the 2026 edition. But whether in or out of the guidance, the courts would look at the law.

From the EA2010:

14 Combined discrimination: dual characteristics

(1) A person (A) discriminates against another (B) if, because of a combination of two relevant protected characteristics, A treats B less favourably than A treats or would treat a person who does not share either of those characteristics.

(2) The relevant protected characteristics are— (a) age; (b) disability; (c) gender reassignment; (d) race (e) religion or belief; (f) sex; (g) sexual orientation.

(3) For the purposes of establishing a contravention of this Act by virtue of subsection (1), B need not show that A’s treatment of B is direct discrimination because of each of the characteristics in the combination (taken separately).

(4) But B cannot establish a contravention of this Act by virtue of subsection (1) if, in reliance on another provision of this Act or any other enactment, A shows that A’s treatment of B is not direct discrimination because of either or both of the characteristics in the combination.

(5) Subsection (1) does not apply to a combination of characteristics that includes disability in circumstances where, if a claim of direct discrimination because of disability were to be brought, it would come within section 116 (special educational needs).

(6) A Minister of the Crown may by order amend this section so as to— (a) make further provision about circumstances in which B can, or in which B cannot, establish a contravention of this Act by virtue of subsection (1); (b) specify other circumstances in which subsection (1) does not apply.

(7) The references to direct discrimination are to a contravention of this Act by virtue of section 13.

This looks to me that the combination of two protected characteristics have to be within one person. Not that each person has a separate characteristic that they don't share.

But it will depend on the labelling of the space. If the space is advertised as "Women plus TW" then they have not used the single-sex exception in the EA2010 and so there is no false advertising.

However, the question will be if there is indirect discrimination because of the removal of the historic single sex women's pond? That will depend on lots of things including the robustness of any previous consultation and what the founding principles of the ponds says and any rules about how to change that.

In practice we are going back to the early 20th century where men will colonise all the spaces and women will be pushed out. Which is why the EA2010 has these exceptions to protect against - it is just that has all been forgotten by too many people.

I still can't get over the idea that everyone knew what a woman was when we didn't count as "persons" under the law - and so we couldn't have anything for ourselves. Then after about 100 years of hard won rights along came the EA2010. And it seemed for a short while that the structural barriers were gone and we would only have to overcome unconcious bias.... But then somehow sex suddenly got complicated and noone knew what a woman was any more - so we couldn't have anything for ourselves - all over again. Funny how it always seems to work in favour of the male sex?

Final legal comment for now.

Section 14 of the EA2010 has never been brought into force, and is inactive.

When section 14 comes into force (at some unspecfied date) it will have effect throughout the applicability of the act. It not presently being in force is why LS's recent tribunal was unable to find that she was discriminated against for being a Muslim woman - that would be combined attribute discrimination which is not at present unlawful.

The one-or-more protected characteristics argument at play in association is quite different.

MyAmpleSheep · 04/06/2026 23:40

VerityUnreasonble · 04/06/2026 23:26

I am perhaps, stupid. But my understanding of the two protected characteristics thing was that it was you could could have a group / service etc. specifically for people that shared 2 (or more) PCs not that you could "and" them?

So a "Roman Catholic women's centre" = fine
Or a "Pregnant Jewish lesbian club" = that's ok

But you can't have a "Roman Catholics and Women's Group" and only exclude non Catholic men because you'd have no reasonable grounds to do so given you're already inviting both men and people who aren't Catholic?

The "one or more protected characteristic" theme is a) speculative (never been tested in court) and b) applies only to associations (which have membership according to certain rules.

It absolutely doesn't apply to a service open to members of the public (which, I think, includes fake associations that charge a peppercorn membership fee open to anyone to avoid the legal restrictions on services.)

Pregnant Jewish Lesbians club - fine. And always has been fine. What's new is a club for Jews, pregnant women and lesbians.

Roman Catholic women's centre: as long as it's a real association and not really a public leisure centre.

But you can't have a "Roman Catholics and Women's Group" and only exclude non Catholic men because you'd have no reasonable grounds to do so given you're already inviting both men and people who aren't Catholic?

If it's a real association then yes, apparently now you can exclude non catholic men because they aren't either of the Catholic faith or women. This is new and not tested in court and depends on the courts doing some sleight-of-hand, but the EHRC feels it's likely they would to allow people to chose with whom they associate which the ECHR requires.

GallantKumquat · 04/06/2026 23:38

MyAmpleSheep · 04/06/2026 23:02

I honestly have no idea why so many people who've never set toe in the pond and never intend to think it's their business to meddle and override what the pond users want.

You don't imagine for one second that 38,000 distinct people use the ponds do you?

If each of 38,000 people came only once a month the ponds would have 1300 visitors a day on average. You'd not be able to move.

There is a concept called manufactured consent where institutions conduct studies, solicit feedback and conduct community outreach in order to justify predetermined policies. This is practically a pure example of it. It's a tactic that we as a society have to become better at combatting because it destroys the integrity of institutions and weakens democracy.

JuneAlready · 04/06/2026 23:32

MarieDeGournay · 04/06/2026 20:12

Privacy is one of the legitimate exceptions. A swimming and sunbathing area that is designated Women Only, and actually is used by biological females only, is a space in which women could enjoy greater privacy than a mixed sex area.

If I understand rightly, there has always been a Mixed Pond, so there was always a 3rd space for transpeople, so it transpeople had access to the same facilities as men and women had.

I don't see how transpeople were being discriminated against, if there was a mixed 3rd space it always was trans inclusive.

Edited

This.

Hedgehogforshort · 04/06/2026 23:29

VerityUnreasonble · 04/06/2026 23:26

I am perhaps, stupid. But my understanding of the two protected characteristics thing was that it was you could could have a group / service etc. specifically for people that shared 2 (or more) PCs not that you could "and" them?

So a "Roman Catholic women's centre" = fine
Or a "Pregnant Jewish lesbian club" = that's ok

But you can't have a "Roman Catholics and Women's Group" and only exclude non Catholic men because you'd have no reasonable grounds to do so given you're already inviting both men and people who aren't Catholic?

I think you are correct as do others such as sex matters

VerityUnreasonble · 04/06/2026 23:26

I am perhaps, stupid. But my understanding of the two protected characteristics thing was that it was you could could have a group / service etc. specifically for people that shared 2 (or more) PCs not that you could "and" them?

So a "Roman Catholic women's centre" = fine
Or a "Pregnant Jewish lesbian club" = that's ok

But you can't have a "Roman Catholics and Women's Group" and only exclude non Catholic men because you'd have no reasonable grounds to do so given you're already inviting both men and people who aren't Catholic?

GeneralPeter · 04/06/2026 23:20

Zoonosis · 04/06/2026 20:21

Yes, indeed, 38,000.

Of course their annual general meeting also voted overwhelmingly to remain trans inclusive, and that can only be attended by pond users.

I honestly have no idea why so many people who've never set toe in the pond and never intend to think it's their business to meddle and override what the pond users want.

Like the Supreme Court justices?

There is a law. If I run a pond and the users want to keep the gays or the blacks out, then tough on us. It’s illegal unless it can pass a pretty specific test.

Us passing a vote to keep the blacks and gays out doesn’t wash either. Do you think it should?

If you want your pond to break that same law, tough also. Even if your friends the other users vote that you all give each other permission to do so.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 04/06/2026 23:13

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