Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sex & gender in 2023

151 replies

ArabeIIaScott · 19/08/2023 11:23

This thread is an attempt at a broad overview of where we are now, especially for those new to to the issues involved.

Main issues:

  • Impacts of sex and gender in legislation on women's rights
  • Safeguarding
  • Children, young people, and 'gender incongruence'
  • Freedom of speech, thought, and belief

Input and questions welcome! Please keep it factual and concise.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
54
NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 19/08/2023 18:33

A post on the subject of Prisons

this is an adapted version of a post that appeared on another thread

When we discuss how society should handle crime committed by male people who claim they should serve their sentences in women's prisons, trans activists often resort to lofty, idealistic phrasing about focusing on crime committed by males who don't identify as trans first.

So what does that look like, in terms of policy? By how much must male violence against women and girls be reduced before violence by trans-identifying offenders in historically single-sex spaces becomes worthy of preventing? Whatever your figure, what is the gameplan for eliminating that percentage of violence against women and girls?

What is the timescale for this?

Currently, women are being abused by male offenders in prison. How long do they have to wait before they are worth the effort of protecting? When you do your mental arithmetic, take into account that these rapes and sexual assaults are some of the simplest to prevent. All you have to do is separate prisons by sex again!

It can be done with the stroke of a pen.

Would you be willing to listen to the testimony of a woman currently locked in a building with a convicted rapist, and tell her that you don't think her physical and psychological welfare is worth the effort of moving those males into the male estate?

No-one ever says bullying in school shouldn't be addressed until we've eliminated malaria, so why is it acceptable to say incarcerated women.have to wait until everything else in the world has been tackled.

When we have threads on prisons, some person self-identifying as a cleverclogs usually makes a fool of themselves by asking whether I ever cared about prison welfare before this issue came to the fore. Often in a highly patronising tone, with the clear expectation that they're going to trigger some kind of Damascene moment for me in which I'll realise that female prisoners don't matter.

Tonight, for the sake of my own bloody blood pressure, I'm going to pre-empt that. The answer is yes. In fact, I have cared about prison welfare since I was seven years old. Why seven? Because that was the first time my mother ever told me in any detail what her time in prison had been like. In the following years, I discovered that other adults I valued deeply, both female and male, had also served prison sentences. I do hope that's good enough for you.

I don't particularly need flower emojis, but donations to Keep Prisons Single Sex are always nice.

For those who have the emotional perspicacity of a dead sheep, this longheld knowledge means that I have always been aware than incarcerated and formerly incarcerated people are... people! (Although my mother didn't believe that this applied to sex offenders and she brought me up to have no sympathy whatsoever. Grin)

Every single person in there is someone's daughter or son. The adults in my life wanted better for me than the lives they'd had, and they seem to have succeeded (unless I get arrested and imprisoned for calling men, men, at any rate!) but none of us know what the future holds for our own daughters and granddaughters.

Are you happy to turn a blind eye to your granddaughter being sexually assaulted in prison? Mine? The daughter of your sister's best friend?

What lies at the root of this lack of empathy for women? Is it people feeling guilty at saying no to particular subset of male prisoners? Why? The general public doesn't normally have any problem saying no to male prisoners asking for better food, more investment in educational facilities, and so on.

I can say, totally guilt-free, "I don't think you should be housed in the female estate. If you are in danger in the male estate, then separate units should be established for the use of trans-identifying male prisoners, in the male estate."

To be fair, I'd fear for my physical safety if I said it to someone like Karen White (who was placed in a women's prison with a mother and baby unit after being charged for raping a woman on a locked psychiatric ward. He injured her so badly she will never be able.to have children) or Tiffany Scott (Scotland's most violent male prisoner) but I wouldn't feel a drop of guilt. I'd feel a lot of guilt at ushering either of them into a room with another woman and locking the door though. And so I should!

Is it instinctive fear of violent reprisal that means you fear saying no to these prisoners when they demand to be in the women's estate? Do you realise you are using other women as your shield against these scary males? How can you feel comfortable with that?

I could never say to a woman, "I am going to let you get raped, in order to stop this man getting angry with me because he's terrifying".

extract from Keep Prisons Single Sex

“Being in prison with male prisoners, you always feel on edge. You know something could happen at any time. We know they are not women. They are physically threatening and aggressive. I was sexually assaulted and I am not the only woman who has been. They haven’t had surgery and they expose themselves. One of them had been told he couldn’t shower at the same time as us women. He made a formal complaint and said this was a breach of his human rights. So now he is allowed to shower with us. And because he now has that right, the other males have that right too. There’s only a shower curtain between us. He moves the curtain so we can all see his penis when he is washing himself or shaving his legs. This is disgusting and I think it is disgusting that the prison allows this.

We can’t complain about anything. They are very well protected and it feels like our rights as women just don’t count. We have to call them ‘she’ and ‘her’ and have to use their female names. If we don’t, we are punished and lose our enhanced prisoner or D-Category status. It is horrible to do that to women.

I am very upset that I lost my legal case. I can’t understand how anyone can say that imprisoning males alongside women is the right thing to do. The prisoner who attacked me was convicted of the most serious sexual offences against girls and still has his penis. How can the government say that putting him in prison with women is the right thing to do? It’s not. I am out of prison now. But I think about all the other women still in prison who have to live with these males. This is dangerous, disgusting and wrong.”

ArabeIIaScott · 19/08/2023 18:31

There are several MN threads on the Family Sex Show. A useful tip is to google what you're searching plus 'Mumsnet' - google has a better search facility than Mumsnet's own, I find.

OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 19/08/2023 18:27

DrBlackbird · 19/08/2023 17:46

Apparently small acts like helping to campaign about period poverty or retweeting the local branch of Women’s Aid will make a difference and result in some reciprocation. They want to make it look like they care about Women's issues so they don’t appear threatening

This quote from that 2018 conference made me think about a certain recent Period Dignity officer and wondered whether that was part of that campaign tactic or just blind stupidity on the part of the panel who hired him?

It's about to be a court case so I will be circumspect, but I'll say that there's no sign the people hiring the man involved were especially tactical.

However, it's worth considering that Lily Madigan, one time 'women's officer' for Labour, pushed for 'period' campaigns:

https://www.facebook.com/lewmomentum/photos/a.192884794673521/278005929494740/?type=3

Sex & gender in 2023
OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 19/08/2023 18:22

Pronouns:

Three, can someone post some good resources on pronouns? I would like to ask colleagues not to refrain from asking our students to include them, but am looking for a way to do so as neutrally and impartially as possible.

Fabulous essay from Barracker, originally published on MN, on pronouns. This may not be a very neutral resource, but it's a great read:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

This may be more 'neutral':

Yogyakarta Principles*

Principle 6

The Right to Privacy

Everyone, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity, is entitled to the enjoyment of privacy without arbitrary or unlawful interference, including with regard to their family, home or correspondence as well as to protection from unlawful attacks on their honour and reputation. The right to privacy ordinarily includes the choice to disclose or not to disclose information relating to one’s sexual orientation or gender identity, as well as decisions and choices regarding both one’s own body and consensual sexual and other relations with others.
States shall:
a) Take all necessary legislative, administrative and other measures to ensure the right of each person, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity, to enjoy the private sphere, intimate decisions, and human relations, including consensual sexual activity among persons who are over the age of consent, without arbitrary interference;
b) Repeal all laws that criminalise consensual sexual activity among persons of the same sex who are over the age of consent, and ensure that an equal age of consent applies to both same-sex and different-sex sexual activity;
c) Ensure that criminal and other legal provisions of general application are not applied de facto to criminalise consensual sexual activity among persons of the same sex who are over the age of consent;
d) Repeal any law that prohibits or criminalises the expression of gender identity, including through dress, speech or mannerisms, or that denies to individuals the opportunity to change their bodies as a means of expressing their gender identity;
e) Release all those held on remand or on the basis of a criminal conviction, if their detention is related to consensual sexual activity among persons who are over the age of consent, or is related to gender identity;
f) Ensure the right of all persons ordinarily to choose when, to whom and how to disclose information pertaining to their sexual orientation or gender identity, and protect all persons from arbitrary or unwanted disclosure, or threat of disclosure of such information by others.'

*these were referred to often by trans rights activists.

'The Yogyakarta Principles is a document about human rights in the areas of sexual orientation and gender identity that was published as the outcome of an international meeting of human rights groups in Yogyakarta, Indonesia, in November 2006' - wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogyakarta_Principles

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3228002-Yogyakarta-principles

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4624160-yogyakarta-principles-and-self-id

One of the original architects of the YPs, Richard Wintemute, has since said that he realises that women's rights were never considered:

'Wintemute, Professor of Human Rights Law at Kings College London, is an expert on anti-discrimination law and sexual orientation law, and was one of the co-authors of the influential “Yogyakarta Principles”.
He now says the international human rights community got it wrong in merging lesbian and gay rights with the idea of a right to have “gender identity” replace sex.'
...
'Professor Wintemute says that women’s rights were not considered during the meeting where the principles were written and the authors “failed to consider” that fully intact males would seek to access female-only spaces.
Wintemute now wonders whether the GRA should have been passed at all. Instead of changing the person’s legal sex, the law could have simply sought to protect people from violence, harassment or discrimination based on gender non-conforming appearance or behaviour.'

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/yogyakarta-principles/

Pronouns are Rohypnol • Fair Play For Women

There’s a lot of chat around about pronouns right now. Specifically, ‘preferred’ pronouns. By which is usually meant, the pronouns a person would prefer.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns

OP posts:
terryleather · 19/08/2023 18:15

DrBlackbird · 19/08/2023 17:29

Thanks for starting this thread. I often thought about how such informed and supported material was spread across too many disparate threads.

Posting these four q’s in case anyone on this thread can answer any one of them:

One, is it the Denton report that talks about how the gender ideology movement specifically targeted children because doing so would help avoid or remove the problematic issue of sexual orientation (vs gender identity) and because the young are more malleable and suggestible?

Two, can someone repost the news report on how some of the key men who opened up access to female spaces had highly questionable motives? I remember a report of several photos of men including someone high up in the Scottish prison service turning out to also be found to possess CSA images.

Three, can someone post some good resources on pronouns? I would like to ask colleagues not to refrain from asking our students to include them, but am looking for a way to do so as neutrally and impartially as possible.

Four, does someone have the link to one of the family sex show threads where a poster was closely involved in counselling and spoke eloquently on how many of those abused as children were groomed by the abuser focusing on ‘pleasure’? Those were eye opening and succinctly explained why the show talking about ‘pleasure’ to children was so so wrong.

Regarding point two, the man you're referring to is Gordon Pike.

A quote from Reduxx:

"The policy allowing the transfer of male inmates to female correctional facilities was backed by a senior official at the Scottish Prison Service who was convicted in 2016 on charges related to the possession of child sexual abuse materials. Gordon Pike, responsible for the Prison Service’s “gender identity and gender reassignment policy,” pleaded guilty at Paisley sheriff court to hoarding 22,000 indecent pictures of children. "

Sex offender Gordon Pike helped set prison trans rules

An official who agreed a policy allowing male-bodied sex offenders into women’s prisons was a sex offender who hoarded 22,000 indecent pictures of children.Gordon Pike, a senior official of the Scottish Prison Service, was one of those responsible for...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sex-offender-gordon-pike-helped-set-prison-trans-rules-q8n3lnksv

DrBlackbird · 19/08/2023 17:46

ArabeIIaScott · 19/08/2023 16:50

And an undercover report from a conference way back in 2018 that is also worth looking at:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

Apparently small acts like helping to campaign about period poverty or retweeting the local branch of Women’s Aid will make a difference and result in some reciprocation. They want to make it look like they care about Women's issues so they don’t appear threatening

This quote from that 2018 conference made me think about a certain recent Period Dignity officer and wondered whether that was part of that campaign tactic or just blind stupidity on the part of the panel who hired him?

DrBlackbird · 19/08/2023 17:29

Thanks for starting this thread. I often thought about how such informed and supported material was spread across too many disparate threads.

Posting these four q’s in case anyone on this thread can answer any one of them:

One, is it the Denton report that talks about how the gender ideology movement specifically targeted children because doing so would help avoid or remove the problematic issue of sexual orientation (vs gender identity) and because the young are more malleable and suggestible?

Two, can someone repost the news report on how some of the key men who opened up access to female spaces had highly questionable motives? I remember a report of several photos of men including someone high up in the Scottish prison service turning out to also be found to possess CSA images.

Three, can someone post some good resources on pronouns? I would like to ask colleagues not to refrain from asking our students to include them, but am looking for a way to do so as neutrally and impartially as possible.

Four, does someone have the link to one of the family sex show threads where a poster was closely involved in counselling and spoke eloquently on how many of those abused as children were groomed by the abuser focusing on ‘pleasure’? Those were eye opening and succinctly explained why the show talking about ‘pleasure’ to children was so so wrong.

mauvish · 19/08/2023 17:12

For those wondering about "being kind" to confused children, as well as the links above I think that this is also important:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

I should add that I worked as an NHS doctor for 35 years and (thankfully) I can't remember a single child suicide amongst my patients. If there were so many "hidden" transgender children in that past, and they were undergoing terrible psychological suffering from not being recognised, then there should have been quite a few.

Conversely, now that being transgender as a child is recognised and society is sympathetic towards it, suicidality due to this cause should have plummeted.

So I call BS ----

Suicide Facts and Myths - Transgender Trend

The threat that children may commit suicide if parents do not support their social and medical transition is not born out by the facts.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth

OP posts:
OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 19/08/2023 16:48

Questions are welcome! MN has an extraordinary range and breadth of women with knowledge and experience.

OP posts:
WarriorN · 19/08/2023 16:37

Personally I'd ask qs on a thread as others may also appreciate the context, but if it gets lost, ask here too?

Somanyquestionstoaskaboutthis · 19/08/2023 16:31

This is amazing thank you.

Would you see this as the place to ask questions if you are on a thread and don’t understand something but don’t want to derail the thread? Such as background on a person or a court case which you just need the brief details not an in depth search? Or even just acronyms

Farmageddon · 19/08/2023 16:19

FFS this is grim reading - lesbians need not apply to a lesbian dating app unless they are willing to do dick.

https://reduxx.info/from-her-to-him-the-downfall-of-a-lesbian-dating-app/

RebelliousCow · 19/08/2023 16:01

Can I add Sheila Jeffreys to the reading list:

  1. Unpacking Queer Politics
  2. Gender Hurts

And also ( quite expensive and academic, but excellent)

   3. Transgender Children and Young People ( <span class="italic">Heather Brunskill -Evans and Michelle Moore)</span>
AgnestaVipers · 19/08/2023 15:37

Those interested in a psychological perspective:
British mental healthcare responses to adult homosexuality and gender non-conforming children at the turn of the twenty-first century
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0957154X231181461

MavisMcMinty · 19/08/2023 15:21

Fukuraptor · 19/08/2023 14:57

Podcast series

BBC Nolan Investigates Stonewall Influence in UK institutions
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/p09yjmph?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

The Witch Trials of J K Rowling - Meghan Phelps-Roper interview of JK Rowling interspersed with other interviews trying to understand the internet culture wars around JKR's views. It's an in-depth look at what she actually thinks about the clash of women's rights and the demands of transactivists
https://spotify.link/pmrj5sWnoCb

And here's JKR's original essay on the topic for completeness. If you've heard she's transphobic then taking a look at what she said might make you think.
https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

As an incentive to carefully and thoroughly read JKR’s sensitive and neutral essay, some group or other has organised a £1,000,000 prize for the first person to find anything transphobic in what she has written.

Swipe left for the next trending thread