‘Gender-neutral’ lavatories are an invasion of women’s privacy - Kemi Badenoch

Its funny how the left always goes on about the culture wars being stoked by the Tories, when more often than not it is the left ignoring the issue (usually women) and stoke up the "wars" by picking on one aspect which they think will score a point against the Tories.

If you just look at the words "conservatives" and "progressives" you can take a guess at who is likely to be pushing a culture war.

The left-wing rhetoric seems to me to be about saying that the other side has bad motives, and keeping the focus on that, rather than actually trying to win on the issues.

All this has happened under the Tories' governments. How dare they say they are watching out for women!

DadJoke, you may not be a nincompoop, but you are currently doing an excellent impersonation of one.

And you have again failed to read the links.

The case that Sinner is discussing has the toilets IN the changing rooms. Many gym and sports facilities do. Maybe you have never been in one, but they are very common.

Why are you trying to distract from the reality of what is covered?

Loos, not changing rooms.

But unfortunately for you (and people who think like you), women are increasingly saying they don’t want male-bodied people in their single-sex spaces.

It didn’t used to be an issue, because (with the exception of predators), male-bodied people didn’t enter women’s single sex spaces. They didn’t need to be told not to.

And for the most part, they don’t need to be told now, either.

Except - we are now in a position where some male-bodied people (some trans, some not, but all - without exception - selfish and inappropriate), are entering women’s single sex spaces.

So we’re having to come out and #beunkind and say ‘NO. We don’t want you here’. What once worked as an informal, mutually agreed set-up no longer works, because of a small, selfish minority.

And the numbers saying, ‘no - we don’t want you here’ is only getting larger. And we’re definitely not going away.

DadJoke

Can you please name a provider who excludes trans women from women's loos (the topic of this discusion)?

I already have, in the last sentence of my post, which immediately preceded yours.

Git gud

Nope. Women shouldn't stand to wee. I have been trying it out all day.

I can only suppose now that the person who told us that is not female or has an amazing pelvic floor!

So, I think that we can really take any male opinion on why women and girls should never have access to single sex toilets again due to some males forcing access as being based on their own misogyny and not informed at all.

It is based also on male people never actually thinking past their very own limited toilet usage and may be completely unaware of the other many needs of female uses of toilets that are certainly NOT suitable for 'gender neutral' toilets. They simply have no idea and probably it never once occurred to them to think about it. Why should it after all?

And reminders of the EA 2010 just serves as a reminder that currently some organisations feel they cannot claim the exceptions, and some are only listening to support groups lobbying for the priority to be accommodating male needs and not female needs, and that when some organisations do in fact claim the exceptions that some male trans people choose to ignore it. It also serves as a reminder that maybe the language in the Act needs to be clarified more so that more organisations take notice.

Some posts do seem to be very out of touch though. Because the growing swell of female people rejecting males in the toilets, changing rooms and other single sex spaces is growing every single year. Every year there are incidents and there is growing awareness that certain lobby groups have been successful in getting this access when really, it is based on fuck all evidence! And the overwhelming majority of people reject males using female single sex spaces.

Not sure just what the collateral number of women and girls harmed will be before the voices of women and girls will be considered equally to those currently prioritised male individuals. But we are getting there, the public don't support it and support is diminishing not growing.

To be clear those are two different incidents. In fact. Bannatynes now is investigating three or four separate incidents in their gyms.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4870071-gym-swimming-changing-issue?page=1

Here you go. The thread Sinner was talking about. Not hard to look.

The toilets are in the changing area and it is communal (later in the thread a regular poster who also uses that gym explains).

Another male walking through girls getting changed in the North at a swimming meet had to be clearly told that no ‘officials’ are supposed to be walking through any competitor change room despite that male individual doing so more than once while little girls were changing. The swimming body made the announcement ‘no official’ but it was very clearly a message for that male individual.

Why are male people so reluctant to abide by and respect decisions that legally exclude them? Can you tell us that dadjoke?

What type of male individual does this in particular? Do you support their position that those male individuals should be getting changed or walking through communal change rooms where females of any age, but particularly children are naked?

Do please tell us why they should or shouldn’t.

Can you please name a provider who excludes trans women from women's loos (the topic of this discusion)?

The only example I can think of where this was attempted was a gender critical conference.

DadJoke · Today 12:05

There is no legitimate and proportionate reason to exclude them...

You need to explain that, if you are able to. There are legitimate and proportionate reasons, which are well understood, such as the privacy and dignity of women and girls to use such facilities, without the fear of the presence of a man.

And that's not to mention the right of women and girls to not be subject to exposed male genitals, in spaces where they would not reasonably expect to encounter them.

and no provider even attempts to do so.

That is categorically and unequivocally untrue. Some places do enforce the rules, even if many do not.

Bannatyne's Gyms are something of a hot potato on the very subject, as a matter of fact.

Because it is all about the men, the whole point of the exercise is to take away from women the female single sex toilets.

Misogynistic MRA power play.

And we know that Ives, a male, decided to ignore when a group stated this clearly.

This was a clear indication that some trans people will never respect a lawful exemption. Or any female person.

And yet, I never saw any ally or trans person denounce Ives for doing so. Not on this board or on twitter. It is very much like the ignorance of holding a rally to get a trans person attempted murderer out of jail when they clearly incited violence against women while on bail.

'their'

If the problem is the need to have loos that all people can use no matter how they identify, yet real women don't want real men in there loos - why don't they just change every men's loo's into gender neutral and leave the women's as they are? Why why why don't they do that?

Has anyone mentioned upskirting yet?

Also the increased risk of hidden cameras?

Japan has apparently had a huge increase in these types of voyeurism in recent years. Mixed sex toilets and cubicles are a sure way to start the trend in Britain.

Its easy to have a sex segregation policy.

I think the lies that have been told about it being illegal to segregate by sex have damaged credibility for trans people, as we know it's a lie they have used to force submission on unwilling women.

This really reflects badly. Claiming it's acceptable is just an indication of how much of a reality gap there is with men still thinking that they are welcome.

It is a straightforward incontrovertible fact that transwomen even if they have a GRC can legally be prevented from using the women's toilets and transmen even if they hold a GRC can legally be prevented from using the men's toilets, this too has applied for years.

It's a straightforward, incontrovertible fact that trans women men can legally use the women's loos and trans men women, the men's, and have done for years, and this does not change that.

Being legal and being acceptable are not the same thing.

What is differnt in today's climate is that the transmovement and trans umbrella includes all sorts of people alongside the demand for self Id and the de- medicalisation of the process of gaining a GRC.

So, today - it is no longer about a small handful of fully transitioned homosexual MTF - the spectrum includes people " expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman"; heterosexual males who would formerly have been referred to as transvestites, and so on, Also people who have stormed buildings where women meet, assaulted women, sent vile messages on -line which show utter contempt and disregard for women.

The genie cannot be put back in the bottle - the landscape has irrevocably changed.