Working with teens, I'm struggling with the pronoun issue in the office.

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DSDs

Thats one of many resources. 0.018% is a tiny amount of people.

It’s 0.018%. It’s often over-estimated or you read crap about it being as common as red hair, but the true number of babies whose sex isn’t obvious at birth is around 0.0018%:

estimated prevalence is approximately 0.018% (i.e. 1 in 5555 person) worldwide DSDs

one of every 1000 babies is born intersexed: meaning, that baby has some version of both male and female genitalia (outside and/or inside)

Nope. Differences in sex development are not this fantastical version of hermaphroditism.

People with DSDs know their sex. They have very clear cause to know their sex, as often it is at the centre of their health and they are working closely with medical consultants.

You need to do some reading and research.

Your colleagues probably have all sorts of opinions on all sorts of things that you don't agree with. Can you frame this as just another thing that you see differently?

The difference between @FriendofJoanne ‘s colleagues’ opinions on football or religion or the best car to buy, and their views about Gender extremist ideology @NewNameNigel is that “opinions” about vulnerable young people can lead to significant harm to those young people. No “reframing” changes that.

There’s emerging evidence that social transition is not a neutral act, and can do eventual harm.

@Quz

Thanks for your reply, I will read the links you have posted as I am interested to find out more. I absolutely believe some babies are born with this type of condition, sorry if I am not sure of the current correct terminology regarding intersex / dsd.

I guess I was just questioning the statistic, which seemed incredibly high, coupled with the description you gave which read to me as 1 in 1000 children having a mixture of both male and female genitalia. Perhaps I misunderstood.

Here is a thought for you, other gender critical feminists, and anyone else who is absolutely convinced that there is a genetically determinative connection between sex (a biological fact) and gender (a social construction). At least one of every 1000 babies is born intersexed: meaning, that baby has some version of both male and female genitalia (outside and/or inside). If sex is biologically determinative of gender, then shouldn't those children be non-binary?

This is so strangely muddled that I had to read the whole post twice to see if it was a joke or parody, Quz.

Firstly, GC people do NOT think there’s a genetically determinative connection between sex and gender, if you mean what I think you mean. Sex is a biological fact, and gender is a social construct. That’s what GC people think. We have no problem with a man being feminine, doing the dishes, liking sewing, etc. Doing those doesn’t affect his sex though.

I have someone close to me with a DSD (NOT ‘intersex’). They are not ‘other’. They have a sex just like you. Theirs was just a little harder to determine. The true figure for babies with DSDs that mean their sex isn’t obvious at birth is lower than that you quote. And no, they’re not ‘non-binary’ 🙄 Non-binary is a social gender identity, nothing to do with sex and nothing to do with DSDs.

Not through work but I know if two trans kids who we cross paths with a fair bit. I use their name and never use pronouns around them or to their parents. I do use the correct sex pronouns when talking with my kids if these kids come up but in your situation that's not relevant. I'd just use the name all the time or say 'they'. Don't comply with the pronouns I've noticed one other in this group never using the pronouns and just using name and I'm sure they noticed me, its kinda obvious you are gender critical because it sounds ridiculous to use a persons name so much, we haven't discussed it but it's like a sort of reassurance being gender critical is ok and we are not alone in this madness. You may find once you start doing it others do too.

@Pineappledancer

So sorry! Forgot to list this source for the descriptions and incidence of intersexed infants. https://isna.org/faq/frequency/ (No, PCOS is not one of the listed types.)

But I'm obviously wasting my time though. Your recommended thread contained zero "peer-reviewed" sources. (Unless by peer-reviewed, you mean reviewed by other mumsnetters?) But no, peer-reviewed is supposed to refer to academic/scientific literature that has been peer-reviewed by other academics/scientists who are recognized experts in their fields. If you bothered to look at my "googled" links (which you didn't or you'd know that I don't use the Big G), you would have found plenty of actual peer-reviewed papers to choose from. And now I'll stop wasting my time.

I believe you're referring to people with DSDs when you use the term intersex. There's a powerful thread where a Mumsnetter describes in detail why she finds the word offensive. Maybe have a read and then come back and share your googled lists of references?
(btw, women on here prefer peer reviewed data rather than a quick search engine search. There's a lot of knowledge and expertise on here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4837643-pcos-and-devastated-to-be-called-intersex

@FriendofJoanne

Now you've misunderstood me. I do know how terrible the life chances of these children are. Their life chances are that poor because their families (the folks who should care most about their well-being) and so many other people in society make them feel shit about themselves! Being trans does not, in and of itself, have any affect on one's life chances. It is the response of society to trans people that creates a negative affect on their life chances.

@Pineappledancer

Do you not believe intersexed infants exist at all, or are you simply challenging my statistic. Where does your info that it "simply isn't true" come from?

According to World Population Review (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/intersex-people-by-country), the number per country/continent depends on whether or not there is an option to use a non-binary identifier on the birth certificate. Because many European countries do not permit that option, Europe as a whole has very few intersexed infants officially. This page provides a complete breakdown of ambiguous genatalia by type and frequency (based on medical literature between 1955 and 1998, so not part of the "modern" trend) and found:

"Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births
Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance one or two in 1,000 births"

For your further reading pleasure:

For a definition and official recognition of the fact that intersexed infants do IN FACT exist: https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/numberofbabieswithintersextraits

For definition/discussion/medical and social research/academic papers (and more official recognition that they do exist):

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=intersexed+infants&ia=web

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=national+health+service+intersexed+infants&ia=web

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-Medical-Construction-of-Gender%3A-Case-Management-Kessler/ed549d80e27036f75c61db7de402a125c32ba0c4

I work with a few people in their early 20s so not teens OP. When you’re new it’s probably better to just try to stay in the safe zone for a bit.

With teens I would just use Name and then use ‘they’ only if constantly using they’d name is too clunky. No opposite-sex pronouns if they don’t sit right. If challenged you could say you try to keep it neutral as a policy because things can change a lot at this age and you don’t want to presume anyone’s gender identity or box them into a corner. Also you have a lot of kids to remember and this is the least worst way you’ve found. Yours is a child- centred approach.
Rinse and repeat.

Seriously? When you left, did you tell your employer why?

With respect Quz, you appear to have a significant absence of knowledge about child / adolescent psychology, safeguarding and the law.
If you know anything about the outcomes from children alienated from their parents / families, you would know that these children do appallingly in terms of life chances - educationally, involvement in crime, drugs, homelessness etc. This national data is well researched and informs our safeguarding procedures as well as how children in care are treated.
The only people encouraging young people to become alienated from their families are those with vested interests in destabilising families and children.
The rest of know that society should be supporting them, not encouraging their destruction.

@Quz

Where are you taking that definition of intersex from??

It is simply not true that 1 in 1000 babies have 'some version of both male and female genitalia'.

I couldn't do it. One of the reasons I left teaching. Look for another job.

@FriendofJoanne

Okay; I misunderstood who you meant by "them" (which is very funny, in an ironic sense). That's a relief, but that does not negate the underlying question. You haven't actually said what your job is, or what type of service (?) organization this is. There has only been an implication that you work with at-risk youth.

The way I am reading you (based on OP and your responses to other's messages), this is about your PERSONAL belief, not scientific or social fact. I have great respect for folks who say, "I can't do this job because it conflicts with my personal beliefs." But this isn't that; it seems you want to stay and "convert" others to believing what you do?

Here is a thought for you, other gender critical feminists, and anyone else who is absolutely convinced that there is a genetically determinative connection between sex (a biological fact) and gender (a social construction). At least one of every 1000 babies is born intersexed: meaning, that baby has some version of both male and female genitalia (outside and/or inside). If sex is biologically determinative of gender, then shouldn't those children be non-binary?

No, I am not a gender critical feminist, but I will advise you on how to proceed at work. Raising this with your supervisor, not your colleagues, is definitely the way to go. If I were your supervisor, I would be very concerned that you seem to think that not acknowledging the reality of the problem that lead many of your clientele to be part of a vulnerable population could be part of the solution to the problem?

Please do some research on the numbers of non-heteronormative teens who end up homeless because their parents kick them out of the house, or let them stay, but abuse them in the name of "love," as soon as they say they are gay or trans. Learn the grisly truth about the reality of that lived experience before deciding, on their behalf, that this is just a fad, a social trend, or all in their heads.

My mate works for an educational charity with teens and she hates it makes everything complex.

I use nothing these days and call everyone mate.

I agree

I just use their name. If absolutely necessary I use "they". I think it's a load of bollocks and simply won't use the opposite pronoun to the sex of the individual.

It's quite lonely to be GC in an organisation where you can't say you are. I'd love to know which of my colleagues feel the same as me. (Most don't seem to - as many are gay and/or have a transitioned child).

Not a teacher or SW but as the parent of a troubled autistic teen on the fringe of this stuff I LOVE it when I meet GC professionals in the process. I feel so reassured that they will not throw my child away, that they will actually look at her problems. Thank you OP from all of us.

@Dissidente apologies. My post to you wasn't clear at all :) Left to myself I would much prefer to simply use pronouns that reflect my experience of the world. If I see a female I would use she. What I was trying to say though, was in the culture now some youngsters kick against this. So, in order to retain influence where they don't simply switch off or where they don't react in some way, pronouns can be avoidable. I guess it is to my mind an extension of the parenting adage "pick your battles". It is pragmatic. I would argue with genderists till the cows come home, but still not have any real influence. The way to influence is to find a way to really communicate at some level. Perhaps?

Totally get where you are coming from OP, I am totally open minded about gender identity but I find it really hard to call someone that looks female a male because it’s just a natural response to say ‘she’ when they don’t look like a ‘he’. I don’t think I would be able to work with teens for this reason.

My dd identifies as male and so does a couple of her friends, they clearly don’t look male so I find it hard to refer to them as ‘he’, this really upsets my dd. Now when she mentions a friend I try to refer to them as ‘they’ as she refuses to tell me what they identify as (as she thinks I am being homophobic for asking 😳). I constantly feel like I am putting my foot in it. Ideally I would refer to each person by their name and not use pronouns at all.

Good example from @InvisibleDragon