17yr old DD thinks she is trans - challenging behaviour

Most of her information will be coming from the internet and I suspect the family wifi. Keep it the same but maybe look to see how you can put some restrictions on what she can access. There really should be a

Yes I know she can probably try and get access elsewhere but at least it is not so available. https://www.internetmatters.org/advice/14plus/ might help. I would perhaps look under the radicalisation section - it would be the same techniques and mindsets used.

you could point her to this website positivelylesbian.org which shows how good it is to be a lesbian, rather than 'bisexual' or 'trans' . The positivelylesbian team is also in contact with a network of lesbian therapists, who can reassure girls and young women about their lesbian identity

I could have written your post except my DD (DS as he now refers to himself) is now 18 and is very, very angry with me. Frequently calls me a TERF and sends me shite trans propaganda about how much happier he would be in the "right" body. Not a single mention of this until he was 16 and in the middle of lockdown, spending all his time on the fucking Internet.

2 weeks ago we had a neurological developmental assessment and he has been diagnosed ASC. The psychologist who I had the assessment with on my own agreed with me that there is a worrying trend in ASC girls identifying as trans men.

Please PM me if you would like. It is genuinely like a cult that DS has joined.

She’ll fit right in!

OP - so sorry you and the other parents who have posted on the thread are going through this. To be honest, for me, the Non Binary thing is one that actually highlights the differences between the sexes rather than negates them. It always appears to be the majority of females who are destroying their bodies, with the historical guff it’s always the females who were NB’s and never the males and in sporting events like the intro of NB divisions in marathons, it’s always the females who lose out.

I’m another recommending NOT responding to provocation. Well I would be very firm about any actual violence or whatever. But the library book - I’d either ignore or just say

‘Look I’m not your enemy, I love you, I think you are wonderful, I know you are becoming your own person with your own decisions. That doesn’t change that I love you. I’m always, always going to be there for you, always. Let’s just not fall out or get too distant - please? I might be worried and have another perspective - but that’s kind of my job as a mum, to think longer term. But that isn’t the main point. The main thing is that I think you are fantastic and I’m really proud of X, Y. Fancy a pizza?’

I don't think bullying means what it used to mean @Kanaloa .

It's a clumsy teenager way of communicating and yes we'd all like to hope our teens will "behave in a socially acceptable manner" but many are in distress, dealing with neurodiversity and identity issues.

I for one am glad I'm not having to deal with the world right now as a teenage girl. I guess it's about priorities but stressing about naughty behaviour rather then trying to keep a connection when they are struggling doesn't make sense to me.

As I mentioned upthread my kid is now doing much better. She's delaying medical treatment because she doesn't want to do it without our support/agreement. We worked bloody hard to maintain that relationship through some very challenging times and I'm so glad we did.

@strugglingteenmum

I've created a thread signposting to a resource you may find helpful.

PITT: Parents with Inconvenient Truths about Trans www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4804899-pitt-parents-with-inconvenient-truths-about-trans

I'm not sure that's true, her behaviour seems entirely consistent with the current accepted behaviour of most of the higher education sector when it comes to persecuting those who don't agree with you on trans issues.

@NicCageisnotNickCave

Okay, you think nobody is saying ‘do nothing.’ I think this poster, who I was replying to, has in fact said ‘I’ve said from the start to do nothing.’ I understood this sentence to mean that this poster was suggesting to do nothing.

Stealing reading materials you disagree with and binning them while buying materials you do agree with. That’s trying to bully people.

And that is not normal ‘teenage strops’ from a 17 year old. She’ll presumably be off to uni very soon, she should be able to behave in a socially acceptable manner rather than thinking she can steal and bin other people’s reading material if they don’t align with her very specific world view.

@Kanaloa where does the bullying come in?

Not sure I'd equate teenage strops and drama with bullying.

And the post your post was replying to was quoting MY post, a post that included a book suggestion re: parenting difficult teenagers.

No one is suggesting doing nothing at all, simply pointing out that strategies that work for younger children do not work on those that can just up and move out of the family home.

The post I was replying too, that I quoted, literally suggested ‘doing nothing’ toward educating or punishing the DD. I think people are acting like this is an 11 year old being a bit cheeky - it’s a young woman bullying other women in the home blatantly and obviously.

Not at all.

Parent the behaviour whilst ignoring the genderwoo as much as possible.

I think there’s nothing you can do about this as anything you try to do will make her feel oppressed by you and further her resolve.
I would focus on aiming for autism assessment and possible diagnosis. If she is autistic, this will explain why she feels different to other people.

I just don't think you can cop out of being a parent. Yes, choose your battles carefully. And it maybe that initially that one's words and actions do not have any positive effect. But I think we owe it to our children to be honest and to show integrity, rather than lying and being cowardly.

So accept being bullied by your almost adult daughter so as to avoid any conflict or possible fight with her? Sometimes I think it’s appropriate for someone to hear that their behaviour is unacceptable. I’d rather let her have her fight and keep my boundaries. At 17 she should have a better grasp on the world than to think she can take people’s belongings and bin them to bully them.

I feel that as parents we have to be our authentic selves. This doesn't mean being angry or authoritarian. Listening helps. As does asking questions. But we can express disagreement and/or bafflement. I think that we need to be honest and say where our own boundaries lie.

how not to take the bait fed to us by teens spoiling for a fight 😬

I agree. I’ve said from the start do nothing, she’s looking to instigate a row by pushing OP’s buttons. The advice to essentially educate or punish her DD is well meaning but with a rebellious teen it is only going to cause a row and push them further apart.

Her DD isn’t going to listen to any lecture on anything. I feel like some posters do not even have difficult teenagers and don’t realise any nudge or sharing of knowledge/wisdom to get them to go down one path is often met with instant rejection and a higher chance of them doing the opposite of what you think is best just to spite you and show they make their own decisions.

This book isn’t about gender at all but is full of helpful advice re: how not to take the bait fed to us by teens spoiling for a fight 😬

(I wonder if they will dare update it again? You surely couldn’t write a similar guide to parenting teens in 2023 without mentioning the near-ubiquitous transthing?)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fI2NoAEACAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions

Agreed. She needs to pay for a replacement copy. Deduct it from her allowance if she gets one. If not, buy the book and deduct the value from her next birthday or Christmas gift.
Sit her down and make it very clear that she goes not get to dictate what you read or listen to in your home. She can wince all she likes.

So sorry you're facing all this.

Can I put in a word for Matilda Gosling's series about teenagers and gender identity – part three is stuffed with a good advice from a whole range of therapists, and it's all very calm and sane and sensible: I think you'll find it really reassuring.

sex-matters.org/posts/publications/teenagers-and-gender-identity-part-3/

I think that Stella O'Malley is great too – I heard her talk for 10 minutes about the teenage girls - she works with in Ireland, and it was so illuminating – and she and Matilda are doing a webinar for Sex Matters next week.

sex-matters.org/posts/events/teenagers-and-gender-distress-webinar/

There are links to all the other resources people have mentioned here:

sex-matters.org/advice/resources-for-parents/

I can't even tell what this is supposed to say

We are in this position too. We've had a safeguarding document added (via the GP as an expert) in relation to gender identity discussions, so that any adult who works with our daughter can't bring in any "destination" (affirmation) bias. There are examples in the document of unconscious affirmation bias, such as asking "what are your pronouns?" - this question can be very confusing to an autistic person, because it is a very black and white way of asking if the person is happy in their body as it currently is. The more you hear the question, the more you wonder if you should be giving an answer that is different from the status quo. I appreciate that this example may not help the OP (as pronouns are a done deal).

But I also use the document for any and every appointment - which may help as an idea when trying to find a professional to help with an autism diagnosis for example. My simple rule is that if the professional won't agree to our safeguarding request, the appointment doesn't happen.

Even though our daughter is a younger teen, we've taken an approach where we don't directly influence or talk about her gender identity. Some other PPs have said the same. Even though we could in theory have a greater influence over her due to her age, we'd like her to build up foundational understanding of her own body through her own volition. We haven't needed to talk about the implications of medicalisation beyond puberty blockers (impact on brain development and bone density) yet but we will make it very clear at an age appropriate time about shortened life expectancy and other risks that are highlighted above (and covered incredibly well and movingly by Scott Newgent). It's difficult to comment on someone else's child, particularly where autism is involved, but from our perspective we'll be telling our daughter about all of this at 17.

We only discuss the subject when she brings it up, which has become almost never (occasionally it opens up e.g. we had a good discussion about JKR) since we did our own differential diagnosis approach at home. @strugglingteenmum I saw that this may not be the right time in relation to your own mental health to think of yourself in a therapist style role. I did it in a very light touch way by reading the Gender Dysphoria therapy book by Sue and Marcus Evans and then applying some of the principles of exploring the co-mordities (autism and how it impacts our daughter's relationship with her body in our case). However, I already had a head start in my understanding of how girls with autism present - typically very much in the same way as girls who question their gender identity (short hair, clothes that boys would typically wear, androgenous interests etc) - from an autism parenting course.

I would also say that from our experience, the autism charities etc are all very much embracing and unquestioning of gender identity. It is presented as fact (i.e. "everyone has a gender identity") rather than belief. We have stayed clear for this reason.

One tip that may be useful - if she doesn't like her breasts, could a sports bra help? Our daughter asked for a chest binder and when we saw that damage that can be done to ribs and posture, also the breathing restrictions and pain that many chest binder users report, we opted for sports bras instead. She wanted very strong ones that held her as flat as possible and her breasts are currently not an issue for her. We also removed periods as an issue by using the pill. I appreciate neither of these may be a concern with her being 17 but, in view of her suspected autism I thought I'd throw it in. The pill gives her a control that she didn't have before over her periods.

As an aside @NicCageisnotNickCave I saw your original thread and followed it for some time. I'm so pleased to hear that things are moving in a more positive direction. It sounds like an incredibly difficult journey and that you're doing something that will inspire other parents to provide support in this kind of way, both without judgement and pressure.