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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Any CofE members around here - LLF response

141 replies

PCCmember · 02/03/2023 21:27

Long time mumsnet user (and FWR lurker) who has NC for this post.

Is anyone currently grappling with the outcome of the Living in Love and Faith process? Despite the sub-heading of LLF of "identity, sexuality, relationships and marriage", almost the entirety of the Bishops' response (available here: www.churchofengland.org/resources/living-love-and-faith/bishops-response-living-love-and-faith) - and the corresponding media reports - is about the new prayers that will be developed that can be used to bless same sex marriages/partnerships.

The question of " identity" got a one-paragraph address where they basically said how awful the debates on social media were and committed to church to "listening". I found this response quite hurtful to be honest; that legitimate safeguarding concerns regarding women's prisons, women's sports, women's single sex spaces are just dismissed as debates on social media. And they've had 6 years to listen! It's almost like the church has swallowed the language of Stonewall (they talk a lot about LGBTQIA+), but actually what they are really talking about most of the time is LGB and this makes me worried about unintended consequences of what they are trying to do.

If anyone is within a C of E church - how are these discussions playing out in your church at the moment? Ours is pretty focused on same sex marriage/blessing. I appreciate that many posters on here may not be Christians and may not have a positive view of the church, but I am particularly interested in hearing from other church members if there are any about here.

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MrsJamin · 23/05/2023 17:06

The video for LFF session 2 identity is here - https://vimeo.com/671980834/f7b386d690
I wonder if they'd have chosen to interview 'Bingo' there would have been alternative "conversations" happening in churches rather than the very acceptable transman and wife talking about their dog. I mean... was their marriage blessed if the transman had a GRC?! I am flabbergasted that the church will marry same sex couples ONLY if one has a GRC... just shocking.

2 Identity (LLF)

This is "2 Identity (LLF)" by Living in Love and Faith on Vimeo, the home for high quality videos and the people who love them.

https://vimeo.com/671980834/f7b386d690

MrsJamin · 23/05/2023 17:04

Just coming back to this thread after the recent discussions I've been having with my church about LFF, the same sex marriage blessing and having understood what "safeguarding" has been occurring over decades at Soul Survivor Watford... I must say I'm really close to washing my hands off the CofE after having been in it nearly all my life. How bloody disappointing the church is and how they are so desperate to prioritise the feelings of powerful men above women. 😢

Nina2023 · 09/03/2023 18:53

Thanks @PotteringPondering Have deleted as I confused a message I received re policy guidance in another setting. - apologies!

Nina2023 · 09/03/2023 15:54

am checking

Nina2023 · 09/03/2023 15:48

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Nina2023 · 09/03/2023 15:31

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Shelefttheweb · 09/03/2023 14:05

creekingmillenial · 09/03/2023 12:59

Where can I find this please?

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4714523-1-in-585-trans-women-are-convicted-sex-offenders

So I haven’t followed the links through

PotteringPondering · 09/03/2023 14:00

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This is hugely encouraging.

But one thing I still don't quite understand. You say a C of E safeguarding officer at the centre has acted on this thread and modified the Church's guidelines on trans and safeguarding. My experience from years in the C of E is that changes happen in geological time, and have to be agreed by endless committees. How was one person able to tweak guidelines almost instantly?

I'm delighted... but a little surprised!

picklemewalnuts · 09/03/2023 13:04

Nina2023 · 09/03/2023 09:12

One letter I have seen (written on behalf of the Safeguarding Bishop) - no doubt one of many nationally- states no one is allowed to raise safeguarding concerns about trans issues as it is 'hurtful' to males who say they are women, especially the trans priests, and safeguarding concerns based on evidence that male abusers are the same risk if they say they are women can be dismissed as 'disagreeing about these matters is not a safeguarding matter. ' I kid you not.

As this thread is public hopefully the CofE will make a public statement soon about who clergy, organisations and individuals who have been silenced previously can now contact about trans safeguarding issues. Maybe ask your church or Diocesan safeguarding officer who that is- it will help focus their minds as more safeguarding stuff may come out in the press, it always does...

That is shocking.

creekingmillenial · 09/03/2023 12:59

Shelefttheweb · 09/03/2023 10:19

safeguarding concerns based on evidence that male abusers are the same risk if they say they are women

The evidence from the census suggests that men who say they are women are five times more risk than other men.

Where can I find this please?

Nina2023 · 09/03/2023 12:48

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AnotherPCCMember · 09/03/2023 10:45

Nina2023 · 09/03/2023 09:12

One letter I have seen (written on behalf of the Safeguarding Bishop) - no doubt one of many nationally- states no one is allowed to raise safeguarding concerns about trans issues as it is 'hurtful' to males who say they are women, especially the trans priests, and safeguarding concerns based on evidence that male abusers are the same risk if they say they are women can be dismissed as 'disagreeing about these matters is not a safeguarding matter. ' I kid you not.

As this thread is public hopefully the CofE will make a public statement soon about who clergy, organisations and individuals who have been silenced previously can now contact about trans safeguarding issues. Maybe ask your church or Diocesan safeguarding officer who that is- it will help focus their minds as more safeguarding stuff may come out in the press, it always does...

What?! I am so close to leaving the CofE over this. What a shocking stance.

It feels like the church's attitude to transgenderism and safeguarding has evolved naturally over time, based on the needs of a few individual people and starting when there were a tiny number of men who identified as women. Now that this is so common, and male non trans predators would plausibly get away with being treated as female, natural evolution is inappropriate.

Shelefttheweb · 09/03/2023 10:19

safeguarding concerns based on evidence that male abusers are the same risk if they say they are women

The evidence from the census suggests that men who say they are women are five times more risk than other men.

Nina2023 · 09/03/2023 09:36

Sorry forgot to @AnotherPCCMember

Nina2023 · 09/03/2023 09:12

One letter I have seen (written on behalf of the Safeguarding Bishop) - no doubt one of many nationally- states no one is allowed to raise safeguarding concerns about trans issues as it is 'hurtful' to males who say they are women, especially the trans priests, and safeguarding concerns based on evidence that male abusers are the same risk if they say they are women can be dismissed as 'disagreeing about these matters is not a safeguarding matter. ' I kid you not.

As this thread is public hopefully the CofE will make a public statement soon about who clergy, organisations and individuals who have been silenced previously can now contact about trans safeguarding issues. Maybe ask your church or Diocesan safeguarding officer who that is- it will help focus their minds as more safeguarding stuff may come out in the press, it always does...

AnotherPCCMember · 08/03/2023 20:11

Wow, Nina2023, that's wonderful! Thank you.

I want to raise safeguarding concerns about the church normalising trans philosophies to under 18s. Do you know the best way to do that?

Nina2023 · 08/03/2023 12:54

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BornInSin · 08/03/2023 11:50

Great news indeed. Well done!
And happy women’s day!

picklemewalnuts · 08/03/2023 11:41

Thank you so much @Nina2023 !

PotteringPondering · 08/03/2023 11:30

Nina2023 · 08/03/2023 09:27

@Niminy @PotteringPondering
In a healthy organisation that wanted a trans policy (which affects everyone in the church, and has a potentially negative impact on women/ children), it would have been written by a team of people with relevant skills- eg a safeguarding expert, HR who know about balancing legal rights, one of these priests and a woman (like me- I'm not clergy though!). As soon as 3 male priests who all ID as women wanted to do it a Bishop or safeguarding person should have been able to laugh and say of course not! You're too biassed!
The fact that no one did suggests a very unhealthy culture ie
1- safeguarding is still a huge risk in the CofE that senior staff / Bishops don't care about/ understand/ prioritise

2- there is a culture of fear around the trans priests and no one dares challenge them out of fear of being accused of transphobia, which will impact their career
3- total ideological capture- even the safeguarding staff believe TWAW and put that before safeguarding.
I have witnessed all 3 and they are mostly still there- so even though I think the amendments are not finished yet, hats off to the female member of staff who knows safeguarding must be done without fear or favour...

Completely agree.

Your message about the hurried updates to the C of E guidance is great news.

PCCmember · 08/03/2023 11:24

Oh my gosh @Nina2023!!!!! This is absolutely fantastic! And on international women's day too!

OP posts:
Nina2023 · 08/03/2023 09:48

meant all 3 attitudes!

Nina2023 · 08/03/2023 09:27

@Niminy @PotteringPondering
In a healthy organisation that wanted a trans policy (which affects everyone in the church, and has a potentially negative impact on women/ children), it would have been written by a team of people with relevant skills- eg a safeguarding expert, HR who know about balancing legal rights, one of these priests and a woman (like me- I'm not clergy though!). As soon as 3 male priests who all ID as women wanted to do it a Bishop or safeguarding person should have been able to laugh and say of course not! You're too biassed!
The fact that no one did suggests a very unhealthy culture ie
1- safeguarding is still a huge risk in the CofE that senior staff / Bishops don't care about/ understand/ prioritise

2- there is a culture of fear around the trans priests and no one dares challenge them out of fear of being accused of transphobia, which will impact their career
3- total ideological capture- even the safeguarding staff believe TWAW and put that before safeguarding.
I have witnessed all 3 and they are mostly still there- so even though I think the amendments are not finished yet, hats off to the female member of staff who knows safeguarding must be done without fear or favour...

manontroppo · 08/03/2023 08:53

Well done to those who spoke up!

I’m an Anglican who entirely agrees with the PP who says the further we get away from the Bible the closer we get to just being a bunch of mates. I feel that there are elements of the CofE who want to be progressive and cool and nice, rather than reflect on what they truly believe, rooted in the Bible.

The Catholic Church has no problem taking a line on many issues, and for that I respect them, even if I don’t agree with it.

IWannaBeInTheRoomWhereItHappens · 08/03/2023 08:49

That's amazing Nina! Thank you.