Muslim women and single sex spaces

I suspect your colleague is wary of highlighting the conflict between the teachings of his religion and the following of it and increasing workplace wokery. He doesn’t want the issue to become an anti Islam one so is staying out of it (because being a man it’s easier for him to do so).

Absolutely this. I'm Jewish, I and my fellow Jews have been targeted for all sorts of nonsenses. Too right I wouldn't want aspects of my religion that are compassionate and respectful targeted as transphobic because they do not support the ideology of transgenderism.

The discussion and the OP's questions do not seem to me at all disrespectful, not her attempt to find more understanding by asking here.

This thread has a transcript of these questions via twitter.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4619604-let-women-swim?page=3

As a Muslim the rule I observe about bodily coverings is that both men and women should cover their body in front of both sexes unless it's for medical reasons. Therefore, if you need to expose certain parts of your body to a doctor than that is allowed but aside from that, modesty states covering from either sex.

“His absolute focus was on how as a Muslim he considers his whole body from knees to elbows to neck to be private, and women would be likewise except to ankles and wrists. He is very uncomfortable showing any part of his body to anyone, male or female.”

I have heard exactly this from Muslim friends. The modesty rules apply in same sex company to a lesser extent but they still apply, no being completely naked as a man amongst men or a woman amongst women. I was told the same applied, knees and elbows to neck covered in single sex spaces for men and women.

As you may know, the Hampstead Ladies pond in London is now mixed-sex, in addition to the already-existing mixed-sex pond. So there is a Men's Pond, a Mixed-Sex Pond and a Mixed-Sex (formerly Ladies') Pond.

The most recent campaign to make the last pond ladies' only again included a muslim woman and her daughter among the organisers, and the trans activists hit out at the mother in a most creepy manner. Among other things, one described multiple different, escalating levels of sexual activity, and asked which level of sexual activity they could engage in, in front of her child at the Pond.

I'm not sure what point they thought they were making. What kind of mind starts describing stages of sexual activity, in order to ask whether they can engage in it in front of children?

I think once you start finding out about gender ideology the issues all seems so obvious. On here we are talking with like minded people and even those who disagree are engaging with the topic. In the wider world a lot of people are not and are vaguely influenced by what they've read - in particular the guardian (!) - it's all 'be kind'. People just assume everything is rational and there must be some reasonable reason for transwomen to be treated as women in all circumstances. I recently broached with the subject with my (intelligent, caring, politically aware) mum and she amazed me by saying she didn't think Eddie Izzard would behave threateningly in a female toilet so it was ok!

I don't think it's relevant that this man is a Muslim. It's simply that you expected him to say something in particular based on what you know of him and he didn't. Maybe your conversation will have sparked something in his mind and in a few months he'll surprise you by starting a conversation because he has researched and now understands what you were getting at.

I'm planning to unleash Helen Joyce on my mum and see where that leads!

Exhausting for who, her friend or you?

Yes, it bothers me that religious women are being used to justify our need for safe spaces. There are situations in which women need safe and private spaces, these should be provided irrespective of individual customs and habits.

Look up the countless texts written about minoritised communities always having to be "nice" or sensitive to the feelings of the majority. Just Google "white tears/white fragility etc." to get an idea of how tiring this is.

OP's colleague dealt with the question politely but it wasn't enough for OP. Can you see how exhausting it is?

For those who really are serious about hearing a POV from Muslim women about being caught between Islamophonia and misogyny, I recommend this:

www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2017/11/19/opinion/muslim-women-sexism-violence.amp.html

But your post does come across aggressive. Other people have managed to say much the same in more pleasant tones.

The issue - which you're still choosing not to see - is that you're expecting your 'friend' to express an opinion that would support your political view. You are evidently disappointed in his refusal to be drawn into that - in your own words you "pushed" before acknowledging that you didn't want to "hound" him.

Much has been written about the labour of minorities to have to educate, inform, answer questions - it doesn't need to be repeated here. But if my statement came off as aggressive, then perhaps you should consider how exhausting it is for Muslims (in this case) to have the "right" view on all things.

Muslim men especially often have to worry in western society about not being seen as aggressive, bullish, conservative, narrow minded, misogynistic, transphobic etc. Can you understand why he didn't want to get drawn into the debate - if he gives one answer it would be considered transphobic, if he gives another then somehow he is ignoring the needs of Muslim womem?

He gave an answer - you decided it wasn't good enough. And then you're complaining that posts that point this out are "aggressive". I am sure you think you're educating yourself by asking him questions but some wider reading around the burden this places on minoritised people/communities wouldn't be a bad idea.

He was speaking for himself and gave you his answer. Accept it.

This.

Regardless of what I personally think.

At work I wouldn't be honest and wouldn't let myself get drawn into a trans arguments.

Just shrug and smile, but it doesnt reflect what I actually think.

Muslim here: yes there is a difference between exposing parts of your body in front of non mahram men v women. Your (a woman’s) private parts (‘awrah’) in front of men are depending on the scholar, everything excluding the hands and face (some say feet aren’t awrah, but some say face are) in front of other women it’s from the navel to the knee.

his answer seems quite a political one, although in Islamic history there is a strong prevent of eunuchs, effeminate men or men with no sexual desire being allowed into strictly women’s spaces

So many of us are in the same position really just keeping heads down and trying to avoid conflict (although for some of us the conflict is terfery rather than religious beliefs).

Trendy Equity, Diversity and Inclusion policies do not reflect UK Equality Law, which when applied properly acknowledges that the needs associated with one protected characteristic can conflict with the needs associated with another.

This too

Thank you for caring enough to make this thread.
Some very anti-Muslim sentiment around that enjoys inconveniencing or embarassing other people for the sake of it.

I had a similar conversation with an observant Jewish friend recently. Along the lines of conflict where Jewish beliefs, teaching, and practices conflict with trans ideology. He was able to articulate that single sex spaces are necessary for observant Jews, with the obvious caveats that different sects within the Jewish faith would be more restricted than others but it would be a problem nonetheless.

I suspect your colleague is wary of highlighting the conflict between the teachings of his religion and the following of it and increasing workplace wokery. He doesn’t want the issue to become an anti Islam one so is staying out of it (because being a man it’s easier for him to do so).

I think you're being really naive OP. I think he didn't want to discuss it or give his real opinion from a religious perspective because his survival in the workplace is predicated on the fact that he plays down his muslimness and gives PC answers. He doesn't want to get involved and is giving the answers he thinks will be deemed acceptable by most people.

I don't blame him.

Muslim women aren't supposed to be alone with men, so coming out of a cubicle into washbasin area with man present is going to be an issue.
Women who pray will need single-sex place to wash hands, face, swipe hair, ears, neck to do wudu. You can manage these at a washbasin if only women are present.

The other issues with mixed toilet facilities are common to all women. Embarassment, privacy, menstruation, harassment, exposure, urine spray, recording and spying are concerns for all women and girls.