Dd ran away to be with trans lover and refuses to return

But she is 18. And even under 18, that would be wrong. And guarantees status as trans kid most in need of protecting. IMO anyway.

I don't understand how asserting parental rights for a child under 18 would ever be kidnapping...while I know Moo's DD has just turned 18, I have considered what it means for x's mother to have kept Moo's DD when she was a minor. Wouldn't the police have been able to come get her at some point? I'm not saying that wouldn't cause all kinds of problems, but legally, parents are responsible for their children and you can't just let a minor live w/ you w/out parental consent, like x's mom did.

@MavisMcMinty 😂I think we could do a whole thread of interpretations of "I don't feel safe" or things which make TRAs feel 'unsafe' in general. It seems to be mainly words that make them feel unsafe: mostly it boils down to "I don't like what you're saying" maybe even "I know you're right but that's unbearable to me so shut up" and "la la la I'm not listening and you can't make me"

@MavisMcMinty
That tweet deserves a thread of it's own!
So encouraging- I'm sure it will really cheer everyone up!

“I don’t feel safe” means whatever you want it to mean, like saying “back along” down here in the south-west, which can mean last week or 1000 years ago.

Interpretations of “I don’t feel safe” may include “Please shut up, I have no answer to that”, “I don’t know why you even had me when you hate me so much!”, “Poor lickle me” and “Me me me me me me me me me”, for example.

I want to add too that I don't think you've lost your DD either. I think this is temporary but can't say how long it will last. There are so many things that could become critically important to our children that we might disagree with, and part of them maturing has to be understanding that people can disagree but still love each other.

I do think a huge part of her relationship with x is pure drama. That will disperse at some point when real life takes hold.

My DD is starting secondary school and I noticed, on our school visit, that there are LGBTQIXYZLMNOP posters everywhere!! It is pride month, but ...

Then DD can home and was telling me about girls she bumped into who used to go to her primary school: 'Do you remember Susie? She's now called Elf'. Etc. After the sixth name was referred to I just said in a state of semi-despair "Darling, please don't start High School and become trans". She was quiet so I panicked, "...please don't tell me you're thinking about ...!". She just said, "Mummy, I just think it's all a little bit silly, isn't it...?" Her best friend thinks the same, so I really really really hope this stupid movement has hit its tolerance threshold among young people.

As an aside, I really don't understand what 'I don't feel safe' means in this context...? It's just weird.

Thinking about you everyday OP. You have our support. X

Oh Moo - genderwoo is SUCH a shit show 😭

I wish I could be helpful but all I can offer today is commiserations.

Luckily the thread is full of wise women who have already offered sane, calm, constructive advice and I can just add some wailing to the background.

I do firmly believe the assertion above - this loss, this awful loss, is a temporary one. The grip that gender ideologues had on society is loosening and it’s a matter of time until your DD’s eyes open enough to see the bigger picture, every day is day closer to her frontal cortex becoming fully developed.
You have been gaslit into believing that you are not a loving and protective mother but YOU ARE and we can all see it and one day your DD will too.

The AA serenity prayer is a bit too cheesy for my taste but it comes to
mind when thinking about 18 year olds and cross sex hormones - we (and by we I mean a general ‘we’ as parents and specifically your DH as a dad!) have to accept that it’s something we cannot change.

Worth remembering that while the long term risks are unknown/concerning the short term risks are much less so - some detransitioners report backing away from medical transition quite quickly after starting hormones after realising that the idea of transition was more alluring than the reality.

There is no reason to think that young people who spend a year or two (or several) on opposite sex hormones will be in any more danger than previous generations of teens who took non prescription recreational drugs and came through it relatively unscathed.

Small comfort but honestly, if it came to a straight up choice between a dodgy online prescriber facilitating testosterone purchase via a pharmacy or illegal ketamine/heroin/amphetamine use I would prefer my child do the former.

Obvs neither would be preferable but there are lots of detrans females/reidentified women who now have only a few traces of their prior testosterone use and who are happily and healthily carrying pregnancies to term (not that every women should be expected to want/have babies, just saying this to point out that even the highly-testosterone-sensitive female reproductive system seems to be able to rebound pretty well after a few years testosterone use).

Perhaps a bit of a clumsy comment but what I hope to convey is that even if DD does start testosterone please do not despair - taking that step forward now does not mean she won’t eventually retrace her steps.

To put it in some sort of perspective, my youngest (the one who survived cancer related illness) has never returned to looking like her old self post treatment (she rapidly developed an awful cushingoid state due to the steroid meds and it looks like a lot of her adult teeth have been destroyed inside the gum by the chemo) but it does neither me nor her any good to think about what she would look like now if she had grown from ages 6-11 without any of those medications. We have to ‘accept the things we cannot change’ and do the best we can to mitigate the physical changes moving forward.

I realise that there is an extra layer of sadness and frustration for parents of gender distressed children and teens in that gender related medications are not actually life saving (despite what the activists say) but your DD is living with ‘transition or die’ as part of her community narrative and that narrative can be very persuasive (so for practical purposes, it may as well be real).

All this to say that whatever DD does today doesn’t necessarily have that much effect on 5 or 10 years time, and anything that does result in longer term consequences isn’t worth dwelling on now, but you can help DD cross that bridge when she comes to
it (as long as you’ve managed to preserve your own energy and sanity).

Can you get a counsellor/therapist just for you? I’ve had two lots of NHS therapy over the last couple of years (first 16 sessions of CBT and then 20
sessions of talking therapy a year later - now referred to a group thingy that should start around October) both therapists were women, one younger than me (probably mid thirties) and one older (around 60) and neither had any negative reactions to my mentions of DsD’s gender related issues - of course in solo therapy you are the focus so discussing how YOU are affected by the behaviours and emotions of others is absolutely expected (and therapists are absolutely supposed to be non judgmental).

In fact, the only mental health professional I have ever encountered who seemed to be Stonewalled was a paediatric psychologist in the psychosocial service at the hospital who was working with my youngest re: PTSD type symptoms - the reception area is full of LGBT awareness posters and I imagine his team have been up to the wazoo in Mermaidsy presentations for a number of years? Hopefully I opened his eyes a bit re: family dynamics and ROGD coming on after sibling or parent illness or after a significant bereavement.

I have recently noticed (via FB) that the sibling of one of my DD’s cancer ward buddies has transitioned FtM while her younger brother has been in treatment (for a very rare cancer with very poor prognosis).

It sounds like you had very judgemental pro affirmation therapists. A lot of people over value therapy and forget therapists all have their own opinions and beliefs.
Agree with others you need to let your daughter know you love her and are there for her and she can return if she wants. You don't have to subscribe to her belief system and can still think she may damage her body and regret her current and future actions. You can't stop her though and you need to get on with the rest of your life and focus on what you can control and things you enjoy and your son.
You can't control your husband's control freak tendencies and obsessional thinking but you can change how you deal with him and how much you let his usually bad ideas affect you.

Look at this Twitter thread and take heart, @Moomoola . Whether it’s just because of Elon Musk’s relaxation of the rules or more people “peaking” (and I include myself in that category) because of Isla Bryson et al, or the “catgender”/teacher stories, or just pure teenage faddery, the tide feels like it’s turned.

https://twitter.com/3ScotchEggs/status/1673422434492379155

And for any TRAs reading this, I’m not suggesting kidnap!

There have been so many suggested texts, that I don’t know which you are agreeing with? . But having read the fuller account of your meeting with the therapists, I agree with your Dh. They aren’t providing a safe space for you to explore these issues, they have an agenda and they are imposing it on you. As I understand , that was the last session, so that’s good. You don’t have to resist and have that added to your list of transphobic crimes.
There is nothings no you can do to stop your Dd taking testosterone, short of kidnap. I will say again, that your attempts to engage only convince her of your bad intentions. If it was me, I would tell her that I love her and miss her, and that I am frightened she is making irreversible and ill thought out decisions, but that I will respect everyone’s need for space and peace, and leave further contact up to her. And I really really would. If she comes back( and I think she will), she comes back, if she doesn’t , you have started to rebuild and don’t spend the rest of your life in mourning. Sewing room , cat , second honeymoon !
Another anecdote. Ours went to University last Autumn, made no effort to keep in touch at all, all messages unanswered, even when our dog died, and then announced she was depressed and wanted to leave. The key thing is that all the time I was messaging , and asking how she was, we were ignored. But when I stopped, she became much more forthcoming.
1 day she messaged”I love you” and I responded “OK”. She told me later she showed her friends that and they were shocked. She didn’t show them the hundreds of messages I’d sent asking what was happening, and to please get in touch because I was worried. I told her that I’d been really hurt and upset by the previous silence, and the penny dropped that you get out what you put in. I learned from that, I am much less proactive now.

Hi @Moomoola - I’ve been reading this thread for a while now although haven’t had anything useful to add. You haven’t “lost her”, maybe temporarily, but please take comfort that the whole trans thing might possibly be getting a bit old hat for young people, it’s a fad, albeit rather more dangerous than Clackers were, back in my day. And although your daughter is completely embroiled with X I and X’s family, most teen relationships end sooner or later.

I agree with everyone who’s said keep a loose leash and establish your own boundaries. It’s a shame your husband can’t agree a united strategy though, feels like you’re the one expected to hold everyone else together. Keep going - nothing else you can do. x

When I posted that earlier comment I thought everyone might disagree with me. Heading towards the end of the school year with so many events going on, my DC have been on my mind constantly. I can't begin to imagine, where I am now, a day my daughter could do this to me. But I'll bet that you, @Moomoola, were in a similar position when your DD was 12 too! I can't imagine ever having to say anything as difficult as I advocated you did to my own DD.

But yesterday I had to talk to my DD about how important it was that she spoke up for herself, believed in herself as a good person, and defended that if anyone ever questioned it or her. Yesterday I was telling her that exploitative people can sense if they can push and control people and she's at risk of that happening if she doesn't understand that she is entitled to be treated decently and with respect, and she must demand that.

It made me think it's critical that they see us, as mothers, doing the same. In a way, your DD is modelling the exploiter's methods from 'x' and this cult. I do think that setting boundaries, and laying out your expectation she should treat you with respect is about more than just letting the line go slack. It's also about a calm dignified self-respect, which you hope she will gain as well in response to 'x'.

All this stuff going on in her head ... she needs to make room there too for accountability for the impact her shit has on others. If it makes her feel sorry for herself and rubbish, so be it ... she needs to deal with that. There's a difference between feeling rubbish because you have issues, and rubbish because you're upsetting everyone. She shouldn't be allowed to confuse the two or be protected from her own behaviour and sense of guilt.

In a nutshell, you really don't deserve this from anyone, and especially not those who supposedly know you the best and love you. It makes me quite cross. At some point you will probably have to make a stand for yourself alone, it's just a question of when. I agree with others that you don't have much control over whether she takes testosterone or not at this stage. So now is as good a time as any. But very easy for me to say. I totally think you should try and get away for some quiet free time as well.

I found the interview where Lisa Marchiano mentions the need to separate - it's only a tiny part of a longer interview about 2/3 way through. It's an interesting talk though.

I also think you really need to go see a different therapist, not a Stonewall one!

Hi @Moomoola

I haven't had time to post for a while so I'm glad to see others have posted what I was thinking. Reading your post about what you want to say to your daughter compared to what you will actually say really reminds me of previous relationships where I've tried to predict the 'right' thing to say or how to act with a man, not physically abusive relationships but when I was young with men that were 'players'. It's just not a healthy way to be, and I wonder if it would be better to be honest about your feelings to your daughter and pull away as a pp said.

Along the lines of I love you very much, I'm always here for you whatever you choose to do, I just want you to do make informed decisions and care deeply that you are happy and healthy and not taking unnecessary risks.

I can only imagine how painful it must be to have your daughter suddenly separate; I never thought about how my mum might feel when I did it but we were never emotionally close anyway and she had my 4 younger siblings still at home and we did stay in contact. It was pre-mobile phones though so it had to be me ringing her from a pay phone so it wouldn't have been frequent. It would break my heart if my daughter did this to me.

The message is coming across loud and clear that she is trying to separate. I think it was Lisa Marchiano who talks about the pattern of daughters identifying as trans to separate from mothers but I can't find the article now.

If you can try and fill your life with other things and leave the ball in your daughter's court. If you feel like sending her a message send a message, but don't expect a reply, or try to second guess what her response might be. Try and take any hurtful response as you would from a younger child.

You're at the stage with her when you're renegotiating your relationship to one between adults and that needs to be rooted in honesty about how you both feel. Her brain is still developing, the pre-frontal cortex (responsible for decision making and weighing up outcomes) won't be fully developed until she's around 25.

I agree with the pp saying message her to let her know your boundary. And I think your DH also needs to hear and respect your boundaries. You need space for yourself and your own emotions. Tell everyone to back off, go away somewhere with just you and DS, and turn your phone off. Everyone is using you as a punchbag or a sponge for their own issues and emotions and you need your own space.

I am glad you had some more therapy OP. My therapist was too positive about ftm for my liking (I had employed her to help overcome my alcohol dependancy not go off on a fadionable tangent).
However the DC and I had a good conversation about feminism yesterday and I said to her you are a massive force these days, a true feminist. And she said thank you!
I actually believe the root question is why do two lesbians take/want to take testosterone to look more like men? (I think I have mentioned before my BFF is a lesbian who really doesn't get ftm) Do they think life will be easier because it won't. Medical complications and everyday discrimination will be their life. This trans movement creates a hybrid accepted by few people. My DC is heterosexual but no gay man would fancy her I believe because she is not a man. She actually fancies beefy guys which then makes the whole wanting to change gender bonkers. The glitter and fabulousness of camp gay men is not aimed at ftm, very few engage with natal women. It's about men as always.

University has had a huge impact on my young adult. She started out very militant and pushing the lecturers for inclusion (lots of accusations of transphobia). However that has wained. Ditto assuming the other students would ignore / exclude her. I am not sure these establishments have seen many ftm but they have had the training and it is very dangerous to their careers to be seen to abuse any trans person. One of my husband's few comments is nobody cares.
We had a lot of unhappiness at school and school refusal. I believe when my DC was home educated she fell into the trans ideology. It was massive 7-5 years ago. America has a lot to answer for. If I ever caught 'Miles' he would be bloody running a mile!
Watching and waiting is my policy. It is bloody exhausting and I did worry that my DC would be dragged into the whole uni trans movement. That didn't happen as the pride society had ceased to have any active members! My DC said I am not doing all the heavy lifting there! Remember stonewall was founded to campaign for equal rights for gay people and that has happened. Marriage, adoption, employment. The same laws apply to trans people. Few things are needed with the exception of third spaces for decency and protection of all people. Everything being built now has unisex loos. Scandinavian countries have had this for decades.
There is huge brain development between 18-25. You can't control a 18 year old and you don't have to be an advocate for the trans movement. I support choice for every adult, straight, gay or trans but it is just as abusive to bully your parents if they don't agree with you as a ftm.
One foot in front of the other. Do not allow her to call you a bigot, unsupportive etc. You are just looking out for her.

DH says, yes fine, but she’s told us she’ll take testosterone. they are saying DD won’t take testosterone.

I think... DH is both right and wrong, and the therapist is both right and wrong. DH is right that DD might take testosterone because what's to stop her? Why does the therapist (I assume "they" is the therapist) think she wont?

And the therapist is right that the best thing to do is keep the rope slack because that will be the least damaging to your relationship with DD and also do least damage to you and the rest of the family. At this stage I don't see how anything you or DH say or do will make any difference to whether she takes testosterone or not. What does DH think you can do about it?

I agree with pp that another holiday with your brother sounds like a good idea!

You have been seen on your own because you are an individual allowed to form your own view. If he doesn’t like it , tough. He can deal with this however he chooses, but he has no right to dictate your response. Just tell him. He’s being an arse ( again).
Honestly moomoola, go and have a little holiday with your brother. Take some time.