Dd ran away to be with trans lover and refuses to return

"The rant will be very influenced by x and x's politics even if it isn't written by her (but possibly is)."

I keep wondering that. You seem to be getting two types of text - the ranty political ones and the 'um, sorry Mum' ones.

Plus X would react very badly to DD being asked on a family holiday - look how close she stuck to DD when they went to see your brother.

Glad you've booked the holiday. Make sure DD has an emergency number for you, then give you and DS a break for it all - a little bit of 'me' time for you both.

It ends with I need to be patient and respect her boundaries.

When she (or x) says this, I wonder what she imagines you, your DH and DS are doing in the meanwhile? All sitting around, life on pause, stressed, waiting for her?

The rant will be very influenced by x and x's politics even if it isn't written by her (but possibly is). And you don't deserve that. You're entitled to get a little bit cross at being emotionally manipulated yourself, at the barrage of ranting whipping you into submission. Really, you're a normal loving mum, a decent ordinary family, this melodramatic teenage self-indulgence can go too far.

I'm thinking of my young DS who can push my buttons like no one else until my nerves are at breaking point. I take it and take it, but there is a point where my voice gets very low, very stern, and I firmly say, "I have had ENOUGH!". And he stops. Instantly. Eyes wide, cautious about what he says next. He knows what he's doing. He doesn't hear that voice often, but when he does, he knows he has overstepped the mark.

Figure out where your boundaries are and how much further you're willing to go and be tormented. And then be ready for the moment that your DD needs the tough lesson that, equally, she needs to respect YOUR boundaries - psychological, emotional etc. You are not her punching bag. It must be so awful for you walking on eggshells the whole time.

I suspect that if you hadn't mentioned DS, the fact you invited her at all would have triggered something. They're embroiled in fighting with you.

Let the rope go slack and let them find another punching bag.

❤️

So glad to hear you have booked your trip with DS!

I agree with @beastlyslumber about dialling down the drama. I wouldn't necessarily send a big letter to DD. You are only going on holiday for a week or two, and then you will be back! You are taking gradual steps back to normality, maybe going back to work, going on holiday.

DD needs to get used to the idea that you wont always be there waiting breathlessly for her to get in touch, but you are still there. And the best way is what you are doing; telling her where you are going and when you will be back, and (if she doesn't already know) then how to get in touch if she wants to.

Asking her to join you wasn't a setback at all. It was a lovely idea to let her know she is welcome. OK, she took the opportunity to sound off at you, but actually that tells you how deeply she values her relationship with DS. And I agree with a pp, don't keep on inviting her. You asked, she said no, that's fair enough. It's treating her like an adult. There will be other things you can invite her to another time, and she can say yes when she's ready.

For the same reason I would try to avoid demonising the other family. DD's friend is a troubled 17 year old, not Voldemort. Again she and her friend will feed on the emotional drama.

I’m not sure if it’s of any use but I read on the PITT website an article by a father who has a child who is trans (boy identifies as girl). It’s an interesting read and there were lots of comments. I do think in situations like you are going through men do handle things differently and while you have reached out for support not sure men do the same. Maybe read it yourself first and then if you think it may help your DH show him - can’t remember the title but it was posted in the last week. There are so many parents going through this in some ways it helps to know you are not alone.

I think it will feel different for DD if you're not running after her. She'll have the space and distance to start seeing her life as it is, as she's made it with X and her family. You won't be fuelling X with any drama either.

I would just leave her be, now. Obviously reply if she messages you, but don't get drawn into any emotional stuff. If she starts having a go, just message something like, "happy to talk this through face to face. Let me know a date and time that suits you. Love you." Don't get drawn into text or email drama.

Maybe drop her a message when you're back off your hols, something like "We're back now, had a great time. Hope all's well with you. Let me know if there's anything you need. Love you."

No direct questions, no requests, no demands, no apologies. Keep it kind but neutral. Let her come to you.

I'm not saying this will work to get the result you want. But it will definitely kill the drama and it's not going to make things any worse.

That's great you have booked for you and DS.
You deserve to get away from it all and spoil the young man while you are there.
Let the holiday be all about him OP.
I personally think a lot has happened for your DD to suddenly come on holiday with you now.
It Will make it very awkward for all of you.
Maybe when you get back plan something like a movie with DD and DS.
Something where there needs to be very little talking.
Hang in there. I know it must be hard.

DarkChoc and Beastly are probably right, especially what Choc says that it would probably annoy her.

I agree with @beabeastlyslumber
I would not say you will give her a few more days to think about the trip.
This would annoy her and also it leaves you dangling when you should book those tickets for you and DS now.

I would just be kind but not do any more running. Just say, totally understand. I just want you to be happy. Sorry you won't be joining us on the trip. Let me know if you need anything. Love you.

And then don't contact her again until after your trip.

She needs to feel the distance between you. At the moment she knows she can say jump, and you ask how high. Give her some space to be in her "new life" and see what it really feels like.

Sorry crossed posts. Yes, say okay.

She obviously was trying to say sorry. That is rather a big deal, so take heart.

I am so sorry for this grinding horror you are going through. She has picked up quite a script there to add to her own real feelings. “She was going to die….” Sounds like the tra words to put into the mouths of teenagers.

Perhaps tell her you accept her letting you know how she feels about everything.

You might even possibly add, “I can see how you thought it was manipulative to emphasise your relationship with DS, and that was wrong of me. It is simply a fact though that you coming along too was the first thing he asked about when we brought up the idea of this trip”

Then as you suggested,

“As we talked about before, it's good to chat about these things or they turn into huge misunderstandings for everyone concerned. Love mum'”

(I’d leave the I’m sorry you feel that way as it could seem a bit negating as it makes it seem you do not accept the feelings.

Perhaps you could add something along the lines of “ I understand this may be too soon for you, and you want space and time, but in case you would like a little time to think about the trip I’ll leave booking for a couple more days.”

Then after a couple of days, book. Try to enjoy your break without her.

@Witchofthekitchen

But the one thing that stands out to me in my memory, and probably the most influential thing she could have said, was her telling me point blank that she didn’t recognize the person I’d become with him. It wasn’t said with malice or judgement, just a simple, plain observation: I was not happy, I had lost tons of confidence, he was driving a wedge between me and anyone I’d been close, and she pointed out how coercive the relationship was.

I recently listened to a podcast called 'Something was wrong' where her parents pulled her back from a totally bonkers coercive control relationship by doing a similar thing. In her case, one of the most impactful interventions came from her boss. Her mother had lunch with her boss (they knew each other socially) and they compared notes on how she'd changed. Hearing it from someone who knew her very well, an outsider to the family, really hit home. I wonder if brother could help here?

Link to the podcast

open.spotify.com/show/3GptGES42jdzOygpz7Qvf8?si=gIUKoUdnSAeWMWTYWUX7kQ

Your mum sounds amazing @Witchofthekitchen

Thanks for finding that Wallace.

I think wednesdaynamesep’s advice is pretty solid. At some point you need to take a step back and focus on the family you still have or risk damage to those relationship’s too. Make it clear that your DD can return any time she wishes but that you can’t keep playing these games forever. You’re not the demon ‘x’ is making you out to be, but anything and everything you do is going to be twisted by ‘x’ to make you seem like one.

I don’t know if this will help at all, but when I was stuck in a coercive relationship in my late teens/early twenties, it was my mum who pulled me out of it. She came round one day when she knew my then-partner would be at work and convinced me to go shopping with her like we used to. I know now that she did it because she wanted the chance to talk to me when he was not around and he had managed to separate me from everyone I’d cared about so successfully that she barely ever saw me.

She made it clear that she wasn’t going to judge or interfere—it was my life and my choice to live it how I wanted—but told me that she would always be there when I needed her. But the one thing that stands out to me in my memory, and probably the most influential thing she could have said, was her telling me point blank that she didn’t recognize the person I’d become with him. It wasn’t said with malice or judgement, just a simple, plain observation: I was not happy, I had lost tons of confidence, he was driving a wedge between me and anyone I’d been close, and she pointed out how coercive the relationship was.

That ‘outsider’ viewpoint was a huge revelation to me, even if it wasn’t what I wanted to hear at the time. It broke through the whole ‘they don’t care about you’ lie and helped me see what was really going on. It made me question the way things were when I was with him and really think about whether I was actually happy. I began to see what he was doing myself and not long after found my way out. Without that brutal honesty I’m not sure I would ever have realized the depths of what that relationship was doing to me or found the courage to get out.

I think if you lay out to her how you feel in a matter-of-fact way, and head off the accusations of emotional blackmail that ‘x’ will almost certainly try to twist it into, just hearing things from your point of view may lay a seed or two of doubt. And at the very least, she will know that you are there for her if and when she’s ready to come back.

I’m no therapist but if X’s mum is an alcoholic and suffers bad mental health it may be the case that X was forced to step up and parent herself. Her mothers passivity is probably nothing new at all and this may explain a lot of X’s anger and aggression, because she has had to take responsibility for herself in age inappropriate ways. This makes me wonder what is behind X’s desire to transition, she has obviously been dealing with trauma with an alcoholic, apparently neglectful parent.

Psychologically it may be much less painful to declare the rest of the world as hostile and dangerous, rather than acknowledge the danger, hostility and fear is right in her own home. It’s easier to frame the outside world as the problem and not her own lack of parenting.

Her co-dependency and dominant behavior may be a learned dysfunctional pattern of a young child out of her depth trying to control her world.

A more typical family home of mum, dad, brother etc. could be alien to her own experience and she may have resentment at how much is available to DD compared to herself. It’s interesting how she seems to be bringing DD down into a situation of having less options, in other words more like her own position.

It just seems the one who needs the most intervention and help is X.

@Moomoola That goose-stepping little dictator has been weaponizing her mental health for so long, she's become an expert at it. People like that are extremely vulnerable to narcissistic injury (https://psychcentral.com/lib/narcissistic-injuries-what-they-are-and-how-to-protect-yourself-from-them) when undermined or embarrassed (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/communication-success/201807/8-signs-of-narcissistic-rage). I'd call the mother again, keep reaching out to her as a mother talking about children. It clearly infuriates the gf because it upsets this balance of power she's established. She's calculated and manipulative, which means you can only win by doing it back. You have the upper hand in this because you're not a total garbage person who will lose their shit when undermined or gone up against. People will notice this and start to ask questions, even if just to themselves. I'd call the mother again and be friendly enough, like she hasn't lost control of her household and you're just two parents rolling their eyes at their exasperating children. If you can, be jokey with her. Practice this conversation and think of every reaction an angry little tyrant can twist, and write down a comeback to it. Be prepared. Tell the mother what you were told, tell her you're sure this is hard on her too and ask how she's holding up. To your daughter, I'd acknowledge that your relationship isn't healthy, but that you're working on speaking up for yourself and working on your self-confidence, and that includes not allowing yourself to be talked down to. I've gone through situations like this before with relatives, it does turn into a chess game. It's completely exhausting. If you're ever able to talk to her more one on one, feel free to reach out to me. I went through a very messy process of self-deprogramming from identifying as ftm.

I was thinking it sounds very similar in a lot of ways so thanks for finding it

I totally bow to the wisdom of others with more experience in this. It may well be unwise to say this now.

In my mind though, if I was stepping back completely, I'd want her to be alert upfront to signs of abuse going forward. I would be wary this might be my last chance to say things that need to be said. It contextualises womens aid number on the phone. If things go pear shaped, mum might not be the first point of contact for all sorts of reasons.

This thread has really made me think I need to sit down and teach my own DC about 'coercive control' and what the red flags are. Difference between good friends, bad friends, and abusive friends.

wednesdaynamesep· Today 10:12*

Everything you say is so thoughtful and wise, and this following part very important:

If this was my DD, I'd tell her I had three huge fears: one that she'd do something she'd regret for the rest of her life that would permanently change her body and cause her lifelong emotional distress, but that you recognise this love for her and concern is being cast as intolerance and hate. Second, that you are terrified you've lost her and that she's rejected her family, but you now believe continuing to engage makes things worse. Third, that she'd end up in abusive relationship.

I would tell her you fear that the third might be the case. That you fear x is controlling her, manipulating your words against you, conjuring up evidence of villainy out of nothing. Tell her the biggest red flag of coercive control is when someone tries to split their partner away from their family and friends. Tell her to be wary of demands to read her texts on her phone, demands to always be present when meeting other friends. Tell her to be mindful that at the end of the day you are a big- standard normal loving family, not hateful, abusive etc. Tell her she should know that deep down herself.

I would give her a cheap phone and store on it your and DHs numbers, woman's aid and any other numbers that might help her. I would ask her to hide this phone, keep it safe, but see it as a future lifeline if she ever needs it.

Then I'd say goodbye. Reiterate love. Tell her it's up to her from now on to keep in touch if she wishes too, to ask to meet if she wants to. Tell her if you hear nothing from her you will restrict yourself to a single text once a month which you will use to update her on the family.

This seems good such good advice,
might be possible though that No 3 said out loud right now in this first flush of love and determination on her part might make her dig in?