Dd ran away to be with trans lover and refuses to return

I think this is good advice. Especially if they're even remotely considering buying it illicitly. @Moomoola You could possibly send her info on these deaths and say it is critically important she knows the source of the T is 100% OK because it is not without risks, and she's too young to have life-long heart problems. That way hopefully nudging her to NHS waiting lists and buying some time but also sounding accepting of the decision.

If you gain a bit of time, you can keep going with dropping the rope and hopefully the reality with X will darken.

How has you DH and DS taken the news.

I really am so sorry. It's awful.

Oh OP I'm so sorry You must be so worried for her.

If she is being fed the non stop bull about everything you say that isn't yay do it yippee is just random phobing, then I'd wonder to what extent giving her that response is fuelling her. She's telling you this stuff knowing what you'll say, which makes me wonder what need is being met by provoking this response from you. (And who's need she is meeting, it may not be hers.)

Another option is a neutral putting of the ball back in her court: to at this point say well you know the potential downsides but its your choice. Sometimes the lack of something to push against can cause more independent questioning.

@Moomoola on the upside, it's harder for bathtub testosterone to be attained bc in many places it's scheduled as an illegal drug.

I think you should write a script. I can help if you want, I've gotten depressingly good at eggshell walking. Tell her you're calling/writing not out of any moral concerns but bc it's a medicine (be sure to refer to it as such) and as a mother, you've been reading into any medication you or your OTHER son (also essential, this is your hook) take, and would be taking the same precautions if he had to take it. You've been talking to t-men online to "help [yourself] work through this massive change and learn to accept it, and asked about how to make this as healthy and unproblematic as possible," and pass on that information. If she's overweight, tell her about diet and exercise to mitigate risk of blood clots. Vitamin C for bone density loss, and to start getting in regularly w a gyno so they can keep on top of atrophy.

I know it'll be hard wording it that way, but she thinks this is bs made up by phobes. I'm 1000% OK with you passing on my number if you think she'd listen to a v carefully articulating gnc person who's seen this play out a zillion times.

Go take your DS to one of those indoor rollercoasters or hang gliding or feeding baby goats or something, your both deserve some FUN and to build some great memories during this time. Your family won't be held hostage, life is moving on and you aren't going to be the seething, devastated mess the gf is writing you to be in this grand drama she's directing.

Oh, and just to add - I always go in sideways with comparisons - eg ‘I wouldn’t want your brother to take T for body modification via weight training either’ or ‘I wouldn’t want you to have breast implants or mastectomy, and even with breast cancer I would counsel a cautious approach, eg a lumpectomy, where medically possible’.

Focus questions on the intervention, not the identity - lots of top body builder have died of heart problems recently:

https://www.aedleader.com/why-bodybuilders-get-heart-attacks/

Not much comfort but I am impressed with your clarity of thought Moo - you’ve come such a long way since starting this thread.

NHS wait times are a minimum of two years (Wales and the ‘pilot’ services are the shortest) up to 5 years, so unless you have a local GP activist who does ‘bridging’ prescriptions you have plenty of time.

CoL crisis has put private prescriptions for Testosterone gel up to approx £50 a bottle (lasts around a month on a starting dose) so GenderGP is getting increasingly unaffordable for older teens/young adults.

Cass interim review seems to want under 25s with adolescent onset gender dysphoria to be treated more like the new proposed spec for under 18s, so long assessments via therapy and differential diagnosis explored (ASD/ADD/OCD etc) so fingers crossed your DD either desists or is assessed on that more in-depth basis.

As for what she said, well… this is the first generation of girls who have been taught, in school, that womanhood is optional, that it can be medically traded for being a man.:. It’s not surprising that a shit load of them are taking the trade. I suspect I would’ve done it.

Just keep going, mama - try not to dwell on this announcement, it’s just part of the trans-identifying-kid-turns-18 script.

As an aside, I wonder if X is planning mastectomy soon? Because seeing the reality of that might be off-putting to your daughter 😬

I'm sorry I've no advice for you. Only to look after yourself, make sure you are taking time for yourself. Make sure there is at least one part of your life that is purely for you and you alone. x

Aw, OP.

This must be so hard. I'm so sorry.

That is awful Moomola.

Maybe try not to show your feelings if you can possibly help it. Let us hope she has to be referred for therapy first.

Do you suppose if you sent her detransitioner Helena’s account of her experience with testosterone she just wouldn’t read it?

So sorry to hear your news @Moomoola I hope your DD has a long wait and plenty of opportunities to rethink. Wishing you strength.

Oh I'm so sorry to read your update. Hopefully there will be a LONG waiting list for any treatment?

I’m so sorry @Moomoola

I just stumbled across a random Instagram account in which a young woman announced her plan to transition. She explained how looking back at old photos of herself as a teen looking awkward (so far, so universal?) and that she’d made a mood board on Tumblr and realised it was full of men (are you sure you aren’t just heterosexual?).

I got the impression that she sees herself in the future with “a beard and painted nails” - her words - and, as ever, it makes perfect sense to me to use testosterone and facial hair as armour and as a massive fuck you to everyone and everything.

Who can blame these women for grabbing it with both hands?

I hope the road to your DD obtaining T is as difficult as possible.

I completely get your fear in this @Moomoola, we know what testosterone does that is irreversible. But her GP is unlikely to start testosterone themselves. They may well refer her to GIDS but the waiting time is currently about 3-4 years which does at least give time to get her out of this. The worry would be if she starts buying it online so while I completely agree with you if she is totally convinced testosterone is right etc etc then rather than telling her she shouldn’t go down that route (which she can then argue is you being transphobic) maybe focus on saying ‘don’t buy it online, you don’t know what you’re getting, it’s not regulated in the same way’ in the hope that by the time she gets to GIDS she will be several years older and hopefully far away from X and this nightmare.

Also to say even if her GP refers, that doesn’t mean they agree with it. I have had to refer one 17 year old even though I completely disagree because that is currently the NHS commissioned pathway. I’m quietly encouraging my patient to be open minded, to talk to his parents and not to do anything he can’t go back on.

And to make me even angrier... I went off to find feminist books for my young DD, and found this: www.nypl.org/books-more/recommendations/essential-feminism/teens

Scroll through. See how they've conflated Queer Theory with Feminism. It's just insane. You can see why young women, craving an answer to what it is to live as a young women in a hostile male world, find this CRAP as their way out. So angry.

she said she's going to the doctor to start the road to testosterone as she hates being a woman

I'm so sorry @Moomoola .

God. We easily get angry at the TRAs for the damage they've done, but this makes me think we, as women, feminists, have dropped the ball too.

I hated being a women in my early twenties. I hated the men leering, the groping, the near constant worry I had to protect myself, the fear of being alone when out at night, or even living alone as I did.

But I had second wave feminism to explain what was going on, why it was unfair, why I should be angry and fight back. I could talk it out with friends on the same wavelength. I had solidarity, support.

This generation have fucking queer theory as their route out of oppression. It's a double injustice for females: 1/ the difficulty of being a women (totally unresolved and unchallenged), plus 2/ surgical mutilation.

This makes me so damn angry!

Feminism can't be only a political movement or the responsibility of academia. Because the politicians are fickle and the academics are away with the fairy's or up their own arses.

It has to be rooted in our HOMES. We can't rely on society to protect our daughters or women in general. We need to marry the right me and raise our daughters as feminists.

@Moomoola , your experience is heartbreaking but, as the mother of a daughter less than ten years behind yours, I've thought and learned so much. I hope your DD doesn't go through with it. I'm filled with rage on your behalf. So so angry. It's mobilising though. I'm going to fight back hard against this misogynistic cruel movement.

Oh Moomoola, I’m so sorry it’s gone this far, how incredibly stressful for you. 💐💐💐
Wonder if you can talk to your family doctor about this? I don’t understand the process, but if she has to go through them first to access NHS care then at least they can make sure that she has all the information before she makes a decision

@Moomoola do you believe her re the testosterone? Am assuming this is private not nhs? Who's paying for it if so?
Is she just ramping the stress up for you do you think to try and force your hand? (In to what I have no idea!)

I'm sorry, Moo. I hope, I sincerely, sincerely hope she won't start the testosterone. It can cause permanent damage so quickly on women.

My heart is going out to you. I wish I had better advice.

Morning Moomoola, nice to hear from you, glad you were able to have some nice times this weekend.
if I were you, I would want so much to kidnap dd and spirit her away to somewhere you could deprogramme her! However, that’s obviously not an option and you are having to do it the hard way. No advice to offer, but lots of support. I think you’re taking the right approach with the slack rope & putting as much energy as you can into having a good time with dh & ds, keep going x