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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

All women/women and transwomen. How do the dynamics change?

244 replies

waterwitch · 07/01/2023 16:44

I’m in a local women’s charity group. There has been a suggestion that we should consider allowing transwomen (realistically a transwoman) to join. Just wondering if anyone would like to relate their experiences of this situation. I do have an idea of how the dynamics might play out, but would prefer to base this on actuality than my personal stereotyping iyswim

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Ofcourseshecan · 08/01/2023 10:50

Datun · 07/01/2023 16:59

If the charity is subject to discrimination law, wouldn't letting in a man who identifies as a woman mean you then have to let in men who don't identify as women?

Because, as far as I know, it has been established that the comparator to see whether or not you are discriminating will be another man, not a woman.

So you can't treat a man who identifies as a woman differently to any other man. Let one in, they all come in.

You can, however, completely legally, have a female only organisation, by using the same same exceptions in the equality act.

Very good point.

Helleofabore · 08/01/2023 10:48

Theeyeballsinthesky · 08/01/2023 10:44

This thread is a great example of exactly why the dynamics change the moment a man joins a woman’s group - sooo much special pleading and treatment

It is exactly the example that those who recognise the interaction understand and those who don’t, or don’t want to, dismiss too quickly to keep the dissonance from clanging too loudly!

like those who nod along to posts talking about brains, without understanding that if it was that simple, doctors would be using it as a diagnosis tool already.

JellySaurus · 08/01/2023 10:44

There is a distinction between sex and gender.

Sex is a person's individual biological markers, this exists and is entirely separate to gender.

The rest of the post is inaccurate, illogical and irrelevant.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 08/01/2023 10:44

This thread is a great example of exactly why the dynamics change the moment a man joins a woman’s group - sooo much special pleading and treatment

SockGoddess · 08/01/2023 10:42

Sorry that should be:
And how can you tell someone's age, race or disability identity isn't genuine

SockGoddess · 08/01/2023 10:40

So Mythro, what about when it is a choice? What if a predatory man says "I identify as a woman" to get put on a female hospital ward then rapes someone? What if a 13yo girl thinks she identifies as a boy because tik tok/peer group/school sex ed lessons tell her she is one if she has short hair and stereotypically masculine interests, gets her breasts cut off and her voice irreversibly deepened, then with maturity realises it was all nonsense and she's just a non-typical woman who was led down a path as an impressionable child?

How are we meant to tell who is "really" trans when the only evidence is someone saying "I'm trans"? Can you not see the dangers with this?

And why does having a "gender identity" that contrasts with your sex mean you should be considered a different sex for the purposes of same-sex spaces or even passports and medical records? Your body has a sex, that doesn't change, so why can't you just be male or female with a feminine or masculine identity/personality (like what some of us have been doing for decades without a fuss)?

And what has "sex is spectrum" got to do with it? It's really not, but if it was, so what? Age, ethnicity, height, disability, these are all really spectrums. So that should mean you can identify as black if you're white, disabled if you're not, 6 if you're 53, right? Because these things are all much more of a spectrum that sex is? And how can you tell someone's age, race or disability isn't genuine - after all it also comes from neurochemicals in their brain, as do all our thoughts?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/01/2023 10:40

Here's another Wikipedia article about a similar concept

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_thetan

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/01/2023 10:35

Astroturfing. Wikipedia is not a reliable source. It's an ideological term which makes no sense if you don't subscribe to gender identity ideology. Furthermore, it's offensive to most women on this feminist board, and applying it to specific people here in a goady way may mean that your posts are deleted.

mythro · 08/01/2023 10:31

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/01/2023 10:29

There's no such thing as "cis", it's an ideological in-group term most people don't use.

Cis is a well documented term
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/01/2023 10:29

Women don't come in two sexes, or men.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/01/2023 10:29

There's no such thing as "cis", it's an ideological in-group term most people don't use.

mythro · 08/01/2023 10:27

@Whatsnewpussyhat
There is a distinction between sex and gender. Gender is a neuro-chemical reaction in the brain, normally along the lines of "I identify as a woman therefore I am a women". This is not a choice and also is something all cis people do. Sex is a person's individual biological markers, this exists and is entirely separate to gender. In everyone's day to day life you always use gender to refer to anything rather than sex, this is why there are stereotypical renditions of "Man" and "Woman" on toilet doors as opposed to the biological markers of male and female. Neither sex nor gender is a binary. Sex and gender are almost always congruent however for a minuscule amount of people they are incongruent, these being trans people. Trans people should have as much right to say "I identify as a woman therefore I am one" as any cis person who identifies themselves the same way. This is because, I restate, that woman is referring to gender rather than sex. If you do categorise using sex rather than gender then you will overlook assigned female at birth people who do not fit into the binary because sex, as well as gender, is a spectrum. In summary trans women are the same as women because "Woman" is an umbrella term that describes both trans and cis women. This is exactly the same for trans men.
(Sources: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexanddgenderdistinction

twitter.com/rebeccarhelm/status/1207834357639139328?s=46&t=VAjMGsL8geOYm4X4Sc8AUA)

Helleofabore · 08/01/2023 10:06

RocketPanda · 08/01/2023 09:58

I'm in an informal poetry group, all women of all ages. Not specifically a women's group, that's just the way it happened. We used to have a Facebook page where we would post poems, inspiration, craft projects, whatever. The sheer amount of dirty limericks and almost pornographic material from TW accounts meant we had to shut it down. 95% of the accounts had Tranwoman or Transgirl in the bio.

Yep… just being a girl!!

I discovered that ‘just being a girl’ thing when I found a period play incest peppa pig fantasy being recounted to my 14 year old from their school friends who claimed to have created it with their new friends on the internet. The new friends, I was assured were all teen aged LGBT girls of 13- 14 years old !

Yes. They were all girls and all 13- 14!!

Now what 14 year old girls do you know make up stories of peppa pig with period and incest fetishes?

But it is kind to include someone into a group on the basis of what they say they are, isn’t it????

Helleofabore · 08/01/2023 09:58

For any reader wanting to see a live demonstration of extreme trans rights tactics and just how male pattern behaviour doesn’t truly change with transition, catch this thread quickly before it is deleted.

RocketPanda · 08/01/2023 09:58

I'm in an informal poetry group, all women of all ages. Not specifically a women's group, that's just the way it happened. We used to have a Facebook page where we would post poems, inspiration, craft projects, whatever. The sheer amount of dirty limericks and almost pornographic material from TW accounts meant we had to shut it down. 95% of the accounts had Tranwoman or Transgirl in the bio.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 08/01/2023 09:48

I'll say that a lot of people would, and do, say that trans women aren't women. Which is completely wrong. Trans women are absolutely women no question about it

On the contrary, there are endless questions about it. Most people in fact know that transwomen are male, including themselves, because if they weren't they wouldn't be trans would they, and gender isn't sex so....

Can you please explain all the things that make transwomen the same as women but different to other men without using feelings, appearance or sexist stereotypes?

MagpiePi · 08/01/2023 09:40

PomegranateOfPersephone · 08/01/2023 02:19

😂

😂😂😂

It's all about looking inclusive. 🙄

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/01/2023 09:40

Sorry, was faffing around while writing the response! Too slow Blush

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/01/2023 09:39

Can any one link to the source of the statistic that shows men who say they are women as 5 times as likely to commit sexual offences than men who don't?

It comes from the new census population figures. Thread here where it's discussed in detail: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4714523-1-in-585-trans-women-are-convicted-sex-offenders

Desperatelyseekingreason · 08/01/2023 09:29

@Alisondonut thank you.

That's quite shocking.

SockGoddess · 08/01/2023 09:25

Yes for me being with only other women gives me firstly a feeling of security and safety, that I don’t have to feel on edge in the way I do around men. It’s not that all men are dangerous or that women can’t be aggressive, of course, but men are stronger and more likely to be aggressive, especially sexually. I am a sex abuse survivor (though I would also support any woman who felt this way for any reason, or none) and that “on edge” feeling is built into me. Being among women only is a lovely, warm, relaxing and reassuring feeling.

Secondly it is about what you can talk about. Being a woman/female is a physical reality with many body issues and experiences no male will ever know, and being able to chat about and share them and laugh about them is so supportive. But even just a normal, well-meaning man in a female group changes the dynamic because talking about these female experiences is embarrassing for both the women and him so it just stops. I had a group of female friends in the past who would meet up to do crafts and it was lovely, but then one started bringing her husband because they were joined at the hip and he was bored at home (or he was controlling, but that’s what she said). He just basically sat and watched and said nothing. But it wasn’t the same, the conversation dried up and it wasn’t fun any more. Of course women don’t just talk about periods and childbirth, at all, but it’s that feeling that you can say anything and other women will get it.

add transwomen into the mix and it’s different again because not only does the person have no genuine experience of being female, but it’s considered offensive to remind them of that, so now you risk being not just embarrassing, but offensive and as has been reported, could even be reported and chucked out (depending on the nature of the group). And for some TW, they want to join women’s groups for validation and sexual turn on and so will seek them out, and try to harass and punish any group that doesn’t want to allow them. A truly respectful male person, whether trans or not, would understand that women having an all-woman group share something that they don’t, and would respect that. (And some transwomen do respect that.) so you’re left with the ones who don’t have any respect for women or their feelings or needs. They’re the ones who want to be there.

Of course if you do want your group to be inclusive of any male who says he’s a woman that’s a valid choice too but it’s not a women’s group. Even if you thing transwomen really are women, there’s no way to tell who’s a transwoman and who’s just a man saying he’s a woman for his own motives, which could be sexual or predatory. You’re opening your group up to any male who wants to be there. And that’s why many women will stop going. I no longer bother with any woman-only crafts, adventures, clubs, etc at all because when you look closely it always says “women and anyone who identifies as a woman’ so I know I can’t expect to have that cosy reassured feeling, and not only that, but if a male is there, I have to suck up to him and fake seeing him as a woman, or be punished. No thanks.

AlisonDonut · 08/01/2023 09:24

Desperatelyseekingreason · 08/01/2023 09:21

Can any one link to the source of the statistic that shows men who say they are women as 5 times as likely to commit sexual offences than men who don't?

Census data released 2 days ago and the stats from the prison service.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4714523-1-in-585-trans-women-are-convicted-sex-offenders

Oher · 08/01/2023 09:22

You’ll get exactly the same dynamic as with any other man inserting himself into a woman only group. He’ll dominate the group and take up most of the conversation time talking about himself and how wonderful he thinks he is, and many of the weaker-willed women will hang on his every word and compete for his attention/ suck up to him, while the more assertive wonen will feel displaced and become silently hostile then eventually leave.

You see the same kinda thing with monkeys.

Desperatelyseekingreason · 08/01/2023 09:21

Can any one link to the source of the statistic that shows men who say they are women as 5 times as likely to commit sexual offences than men who don't?