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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please help! Gender not sex on a school 'protected characteristics' poster, just spoken to the Head!

994 replies

Vebrithien · 06/01/2023 09:55

Good morning,

I started this thread before Christmas

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4684558-today-i-found-my-bravery?page=1

The overview is that my DD's primary school is displaying posters by No Outsiders, which are supposed to show the 9 protected characteristics, but shows gender, not sex.

The (male) deputy head I mentioned it to, before Christmas, has not got back to me. The posters are still there.

I summoned up my courage this morning, and spoke to the Headteacher. She seemed surprised, as I said I'd already mentioned it to one deputy head, and that I'd picked up on it due to my school expecting Ofsted, and reissuing our equality training.

The Head said that it was surprising, as No Outsiders were an organisation whose specialism was equalities.

I replied that the EA2010 says sex, not gender. I also mentioned that there were some concerning resources produced by them, including an assembly where a dad wants to offer violence to children who do not accept his trans child. (I know no more than this)

The Head is going to talk to her other deputy head, whose responsibility this is, and to try to put us in contact.

Where do I do from here?

Can any one help me with evidence? What particularly is dodgy about No Outsiders?

Is there anything that states that schools mustn't misrepresent the EA?

Is there any DofE (or whatever it's called now) guidance for schools on the resources they used or how they represent the EA?

And, how should I go about finding out if the school uses other No Outsiders resources?

Please help, I want as much evidence as I can.

Still shaking with adrenaline from speaking to the Head!

OP posts:
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HipTightOnions · 06/01/2023 13:02

What would "gender" as a PC even mean?

People with one sort of undefinable feeling or essence must not be treated less favourably than other people with a different sort of undefinable feeling or essence?

"I didn't get the promotion because of my internal and indescribable perception about myself?"

How would that work?

TeaKlaxon · 06/01/2023 13:01

Soontobe60 · 06/01/2023 12:54

Yeah, no. Sex is biological. I know that, you know that and Lady Haldane knows that.
Just like the earth isn’t flat, the moon isn’t made of cheese, Jesus didn’t rise from the dead, males can’t get pregnant.

We’re talking about the law.

Under the law, sex is not just biological.

No matter how much you wish things were different, simply claiming the law is something other than it is is just delusional.

Soontobe60 · 06/01/2023 12:59

TeaKlaxon · 06/01/2023 12:53

Thanks for being one of the few posters to acknowledge the reality that the EA2010 ground is not limited to biological sex.

Perhaps you can try and convince those who are claiming otherwise.

That’s not what LH said though. She was talking about the impact the wording of the EA.

TeaKlaxon · 06/01/2023 12:59

HipTightOnions · 06/01/2023 12:52

Everyone demanding that this school do something to imply the Equality Act sex ground only applies in respect of biological sex are demanding it misrepresent the law.

The law says "sex". It may turn out that this includes people with a GRC, although this is a recent development and may well be challenged.

What is definitely NOT a protected characteristic is "gender" (whatever that means).

That ignores that this is a children’s comms campaign - not a mere textual reproduction of legislation.

It’s really common in comms campaigns to describe the actual effect of a law rather than just the text of legislation.

For almost all practical purposes, discrimination based on gender is prohibited under the Equality Act, through a combination of the sex ground (which is not limited to biological sex) and the gender reassignment ground (which is broad enough to encompass anyone who is openly trans or NB).

No Outsiders should communicate what the practical effect of legislation is - not just the specific words used in the legislation. As we see on here, simply saying the protected ground is ‘sex’ gives rise to a lot of incorrect understanding of what is actually protected.

pattihews · 06/01/2023 12:55

TeaKlaxon · 06/01/2023 12:33

But OP doesn’t seem to want to reflect the law correctly - she like many posters seem to want the school to imply a meaning to the Equality Act 2010 which Lady Haldane has explicitly declared to be legally incorrect.

Lady Haldane knew when she wrote her judgment that it was legally very contentious and that it would require swathes of existing legislation to be rewritten and reconsidered. She will be extremely strongly contested.

Rather like the Employment Tribunal judge who declared that GC beliefs were not worthy of respect in a democratic society, or Mermaids' decision to challenge LGB Alliance in court, I predict this is another apparent 'victory' that will turn out to have been another bullet-in-foot moment.

But keep whistling in the dark while the world continues to wakes up to the abuse, homophobia and misogyny inherent in gender ideology.

SantaCarlaCalifornia · 06/01/2023 12:54

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 11:57

This has been debated ad nauseam already. Do the right thing and put yourself on the right side of history.

Does your conscience ever prickle when you realise that your idea of being on the "right side of history" leads to males being put in women's prisons? Which leads to women being raped as a direct consequence of what you're advocating for?
Does it ever make you rethink your stance or are you too far gone down the rabbit hole?

Soontobe60 · 06/01/2023 12:54

TeaKlaxon · 06/01/2023 12:51

Why are you asking me? I’m just telling you what the legal definition is as set out by Lady Haldane. And that definition is that sex is not just about biological sex.

It is simple legal fact.

You might wish that it weren’t the case but it is.

Yeah, no. Sex is biological. I know that, you know that and Lady Haldane knows that.
Just like the earth isn’t flat, the moon isn’t made of cheese, Jesus didn’t rise from the dead, males can’t get pregnant.

TeaKlaxon · 06/01/2023 12:53

ThreeB · 06/01/2023 12:52

The case being referred to was looking at the legal effect of an individual holding a GRC.

Lady Haldane stated that sex was not limited to biological or birth sex but also included those with a GRC (note she was very specific in this).

Without possession of a GRC, the protected characteristic in question is Gender Reassignment not Sex. It should also be noted that she stated that sex and gender reassignment were separate and distinct characteristics and were not to be conflated

The school poster is factually incorrect as the protected characteristic is sex not gender.

Thanks for being one of the few posters to acknowledge the reality that the EA2010 ground is not limited to biological sex.

Perhaps you can try and convince those who are claiming otherwise.

HipTightOnions · 06/01/2023 12:52

Everyone demanding that this school do something to imply the Equality Act sex ground only applies in respect of biological sex are demanding it misrepresent the law.

The law says "sex". It may turn out that this includes people with a GRC, although this is a recent development and may well be challenged.

What is definitely NOT a protected characteristic is "gender" (whatever that means).

ThreeB · 06/01/2023 12:52

The case being referred to was looking at the legal effect of an individual holding a GRC.

Lady Haldane stated that sex was not limited to biological or birth sex but also included those with a GRC (note she was very specific in this).

Without possession of a GRC, the protected characteristic in question is Gender Reassignment not Sex. It should also be noted that she stated that sex and gender reassignment were separate and distinct characteristics and were not to be conflated

The school poster is factually incorrect as the protected characteristic is sex not gender.

Soontobe60 · 06/01/2023 12:52

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 11:57

This has been debated ad nauseam already. Do the right thing and put yourself on the right side of history.

Which TRA bingo card are you using today ELO?

TeaKlaxon · 06/01/2023 12:51

Soontobe60 · 06/01/2023 12:50

Go one then, what else does ‘sex’ mean if not just about biology?
A transwoman has the same protections under the EA as anyone with the other protected characteristics. They don’t have the protection of being able to use female spaces in certain situations though. That’s because they are male.

Why are you asking me? I’m just telling you what the legal definition is as set out by Lady Haldane. And that definition is that sex is not just about biological sex.

It is simple legal fact.

You might wish that it weren’t the case but it is.

NellieJean · 06/01/2023 12:50

Christ who’d be a head teacher with this to deal with alongside OFSTED, absences, staff sickness, threatened strikes, budgets etc etc.

Soontobe60 · 06/01/2023 12:50

TeaKlaxon · 06/01/2023 11:17

What an off hill to die on since the law is clear that the EA2010 does not only apply to biological sex.

Given the number of people who mistakenly think ‘sex’ only means biological sex, saying the EA protects based on gender is arguably more accurate - contextually if not textually - given that, for example a trans woman who is discriminated against for being a woman could enjoy the same protection as a cis woman.

Based on the responses on here, simply saying EA protects against discrimination based on sex could give rise to the mistaken belief that a trans woman discriminated again for being a woman would not enjoy protection.

Go one then, what else does ‘sex’ mean if not just about biology?
A transwoman has the same protections under the EA as anyone with the other protected characteristics. They don’t have the protection of being able to use female spaces in certain situations though. That’s because they are male.

Beowulfa · 06/01/2023 12:48

TeaKlaxon · 06/01/2023 12:36

Is there a reason you can’t do your own legal research?

I'm looking for a checklist of man/woman gender characteristics legally approved by the UK government so I can ensure the assignment at my birth is correct.

I've tried various wordings in a search engine but can't seem to find one. I'm sure a trans ally will be able to provide something though. Thanks in advance.

TeaKlaxon · 06/01/2023 12:47

HipTightOnions · 06/01/2023 12:25

In addition, gender identity is de facto protected because of the breadth of the gender reassignment grounds - essentially protecting anyone who has taken any step towards identifying as a gender other than that assigned at birth.

No, you are confused.

"Taken any step" probably does mean you are protected against discrimination because of gender reassignment, but a man putting on a dress (for example) does not entitle him to protections as if he had changed sex.

Yes - virtually any trans person is protected by virtue of the gender reassignment ground.

But some trans people are also protected by the sex ground in respect of their identified gender. That is just a legal fact.

Everyone demanding that this school do something to imply the Equality Act sex ground only applies in respect of biological sex are demanding it misrepresent the law.

FunnyTalks · 06/01/2023 12:42

Right side of history is such a patriarchal statement.

History is about and by the powerful more often than not.

The history of the subjugation of women is barely told.

OP you're doing brilliantly. Thanks for being so uncouth as to care about what children are taught and not just sucking it up like a good woman. Very gender non conforming and inspiring.

Vebrithien · 06/01/2023 12:42

Thank you @Tinysoxxx and everyone else who has been supportive.

OP posts:
Tinysoxxx · 06/01/2023 12:38

Vebrithien · 06/01/2023 12:34

Goodness, I step away for a swimming lesson, and everything happens 😂

Sex is the word, the concern of a 'trainer' should know the law, and not misrepresented it to young children, is my primary focus. And the school I believe has a legal duty to equally promote all of the 9 protected characteristics.

Next, is to see if they use other resources by No Outsiders. If that is the case, I will collect some more evidence, and explain my concerns.

I'm a science teacher, a woman who has experienced discrimination and violence due to my sex, and I damn well know the difference between a male and a female.

I will be doubly dammed, if I stand by and let my innocent daughter be taught that it is possible to change sex, and that all that matters is a feeling in someone's head.

It's a failure of the biological dimorphism of the human species, common sense and safeguarding.

From a fellow biology teacher, I am with you.

TeaKlaxon · 06/01/2023 12:38

Vebrithien · 06/01/2023 12:36

Recently, I have been so relieved that I don't live in Scotland. The land of the free(men), where women are expected to put up and shut up.

Whether you live in Scotland or not is irrelevant. The Court of Session ruling is in respect of a GB-wide Act and so is the definitive statement of that Act’s meaning unless it were overturned by the UK Supreme Court.

lifeturnsonadime · 06/01/2023 12:37

Do the right thing and put yourself on the right side of history.

Oh you mean the side of history that seeks to erode women's rights at law?

The side of history that's homophobic to the point of denying same sex attraction?

The side of history that chemically castrates young boys, and renders them infertile and impotent?

The side of history that doesn't give a fig that it's harming autistic girls?

NO THANK YOU.

TeaKlaxon · 06/01/2023 12:36

Beowulfa · 06/01/2023 12:34

In addition, gender identity is de facto protected because of the breadth of the gender reassignment grounds - essentially protecting anyone who has taken any step towards identifying as a gender other than that assigned at birth.

As we are talking about the law, please can you clarify the legal definition of "taking a step towards identifying as a gender other than that assigned at birth"?

I'm female but as usual this morning turned to the sports section of the paper first. Does that mean I'm on the road to becoming a man? Is there a checklist?

Is there a reason you can’t do your own legal research?

Vebrithien · 06/01/2023 12:36

TeaKlaxon · 06/01/2023 12:31

This is just wrong. Literally less than a month ago Lady Haldane in the Scottish Court of Sessions held that the ‘sex’ ground in the Equality Act does not relate solely to biological sex.

Giving the impression that it does would be highly misleading of the school.

Recently, I have been so relieved that I don't live in Scotland. The land of the free(men), where women are expected to put up and shut up.

OP posts:
Beowulfa · 06/01/2023 12:34

In addition, gender identity is de facto protected because of the breadth of the gender reassignment grounds - essentially protecting anyone who has taken any step towards identifying as a gender other than that assigned at birth.

As we are talking about the law, please can you clarify the legal definition of "taking a step towards identifying as a gender other than that assigned at birth"?

I'm female but as usual this morning turned to the sports section of the paper first. Does that mean I'm on the road to becoming a man? Is there a checklist?