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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please help! Gender not sex on a school 'protected characteristics' poster, just spoken to the Head!

994 replies

Vebrithien · 06/01/2023 09:55

Good morning,

I started this thread before Christmas

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4684558-today-i-found-my-bravery?page=1

The overview is that my DD's primary school is displaying posters by No Outsiders, which are supposed to show the 9 protected characteristics, but shows gender, not sex.

The (male) deputy head I mentioned it to, before Christmas, has not got back to me. The posters are still there.

I summoned up my courage this morning, and spoke to the Headteacher. She seemed surprised, as I said I'd already mentioned it to one deputy head, and that I'd picked up on it due to my school expecting Ofsted, and reissuing our equality training.

The Head said that it was surprising, as No Outsiders were an organisation whose specialism was equalities.

I replied that the EA2010 says sex, not gender. I also mentioned that there were some concerning resources produced by them, including an assembly where a dad wants to offer violence to children who do not accept his trans child. (I know no more than this)

The Head is going to talk to her other deputy head, whose responsibility this is, and to try to put us in contact.

Where do I do from here?

Can any one help me with evidence? What particularly is dodgy about No Outsiders?

Is there anything that states that schools mustn't misrepresent the EA?

Is there any DofE (or whatever it's called now) guidance for schools on the resources they used or how they represent the EA?

And, how should I go about finding out if the school uses other No Outsiders resources?

Please help, I want as much evidence as I can.

Still shaking with adrenaline from speaking to the Head!

OP posts:
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13
EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 16:10

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/01/2023 16:07

This. If we adopted a utilitarian starting point, most women don't want male bodies in female spaces, and there are many more of us.

do you not think, though, a utilitarian strategy based on achieving the lowest net amount of assault, trumps one based on accommodating feelings?

Apollo441 · 06/01/2023 16:09

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 16:04

But the cases of transsexual women assaulting cis women when placed in women only spaces are tiny. That is the metric that matters.

No it isn't tiny. It happens. Once is too many. Just the presence of TW is humiliating and intimidating to women too.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/01/2023 16:08

Go on, show us the data where we benefit from males in female only spaces.

lifeturnsonadime · 06/01/2023 16:08

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 16:04

But the cases of transsexual women assaulting cis women when placed in women only spaces are tiny. That is the metric that matters.

The metric that matters is that not one woman was raped in a woman's prison until they stopped being single sex.

That is why single sex spaces are important.

For the safety and dignity of women.

You don't give two hoots about women. We are just human shields and collateral damage to your 'tiny minority' of males who you believe to be oppressed but it is blindingly obvious they are the opposite of that by the way they are prepared to trample on the rights of those that they claim to 'identify as'.

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 16:07

Apollo441 · 06/01/2023 16:06

Some bold claims. I'd say it benefits women not one iota placing a TW in a woman's prison and opens them up to harm they were not previously exposed to. I don't believe your assertion about TW in male prisons and I find your dismissal of the harm done to women as offensive in the extreme. Even if your claims have any basis in reality, it is the prison services duty to protect vulnerable prisoners and tw should be assessed and treated like other vulnerable male prisoners. They DO NOT belong in women's prisons.

‘Bold claims’ completely supported by easily sourced data

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/01/2023 16:07

lifeinthelastlane · 06/01/2023 16:05

To adopt a utilitarian starting point, allowing trans women to be put on women’s prisons delivers the greater good for the greater number.
Are you sure? You'd have to weigh up the unhappiness of the large number of women in the prison who didn't like having a man there as well as the happiness of the trans woman (or any bloke claiming to be trans). In fact utilitarianism generally isn't very supportive of any minority interest, as more overall happiness is created by making the majority happy not a small minority.

This. If we adopted a utilitarian starting point, most women don't want male bodies in female spaces, and there are many more of us.

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 16:06

teawamutu · 06/01/2023 16:03

I note you haven't answered the question. Everyone will note you haven't answered the question. Please answer the question.

And to yours: Rape can only be committed, in UK law, with a penis. To whit, by a male. In a women's prison, adding in some males (more often than not convicted of sexual offences) raises the rape rate from zero to more than zero. This is 100% avoidable by NOT locking males in with females.

Trying to go to the other extreme of isolation is pointless whataboutery.

It’s not true that males in prison have “more often than not” been convicted of sexual offences. Sexual offenders are not a majority of imprisoned male offenders.

Apollo441 · 06/01/2023 16:06

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 15:59

Per capita many more transsexuals are assaulted and raped when placed in male persons, for instance, than women are when m2w transsexuals are placed in women’s facilities. To adopt a utilitarian starting point, allowing trans women to be put on women’s prisons delivers the greater good for the greater number.

Some bold claims. I'd say it benefits women not one iota placing a TW in a woman's prison and opens them up to harm they were not previously exposed to. I don't believe your assertion about TW in male prisons and I find your dismissal of the harm done to women as offensive in the extreme. Even if your claims have any basis in reality, it is the prison services duty to protect vulnerable prisoners and tw should be assessed and treated like other vulnerable male prisoners. They DO NOT belong in women's prisons.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/01/2023 16:06

There's no such thing as "cis", it's an ideological in-group label most of the world doesn't use.

lifeinthelastlane · 06/01/2023 16:05

To adopt a utilitarian starting point, allowing trans women to be put on women’s prisons delivers the greater good for the greater number.
Are you sure? You'd have to weigh up the unhappiness of the large number of women in the prison who didn't like having a man there as well as the happiness of the trans woman (or any bloke claiming to be trans). In fact utilitarianism generally isn't very supportive of any minority interest, as more overall happiness is created by making the majority happy not a small minority.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/01/2023 16:05

Are we just talking about "transsexuals" then? I thought that was outdated?

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 16:04

Apollo441 · 06/01/2023 16:00

99% of sex crimes are committed by men. That is all the reason you need to segregate by SEX. The case of sexual assault by women are vanishingly rare. 'Women do it too' is not an excuse to open the floodgates to male sexual assault.

But the cases of transsexual women assaulting cis women when placed in women only spaces are tiny. That is the metric that matters.

ClitoralViolence · 06/01/2023 16:04

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 11:57

This has been debated ad nauseam already. Do the right thing and put yourself on the right side of history.

Yes. The right side of history. That would be the side where MRAs actually respected women and didn't trample all over womens rights, I take it.

teawamutu · 06/01/2023 16:03

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 15:56

There are assaults in women only spaces, such as prisons, for instance. Should everyone be kept in isolation?

I note you haven't answered the question. Everyone will note you haven't answered the question. Please answer the question.

And to yours: Rape can only be committed, in UK law, with a penis. To whit, by a male. In a women's prison, adding in some males (more often than not convicted of sexual offences) raises the rape rate from zero to more than zero. This is 100% avoidable by NOT locking males in with females.

Trying to go to the other extreme of isolation is pointless whataboutery.

lifeturnsonadime · 06/01/2023 16:01

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 15:59

Per capita many more transsexuals are assaulted and raped when placed in male persons, for instance, than women are when m2w transsexuals are placed in women’s facilities. To adopt a utilitarian starting point, allowing trans women to be put on women’s prisons delivers the greater good for the greater number.

Why is male on male violence a problem that women should solve?

Why should women accept males, who might rape them, in prisons because males assault other males?

Small men and gay men are also a risk in prisons, should women also welcome them with open arms because they are at risk?

Vebrithien · 06/01/2023 16:01

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 15:42

My advice: ask yourself why you want to make life harder for a tiny vulnerable minority, the ‘threat’ of which is not supported by any meaningful research

I don't.

I want the words used in UK law, to be written correctly on a poster about the law.

If we start calling theft "product acquisition", that doesn't means that a person who steals is not a thief.

The word is sex. Not gender. In law.

Therefore, the poster should use the word sex

OP posts:
Apollo441 · 06/01/2023 16:00

99% of sex crimes are committed by men. That is all the reason you need to segregate by SEX. The case of sexual assault by women are vanishingly rare. 'Women do it too' is not an excuse to open the floodgates to male sexual assault.

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 15:59

lifeturnsonadime · 06/01/2023 15:53

Just 1 is enough to tell me who the real minority is, clue it's not the same one that you believe it to be.

The fact that you think women are the bottom of the heap shows that you know, in reality, who the women are.

Per capita many more transsexuals are assaulted and raped when placed in male persons, for instance, than women are when m2w transsexuals are placed in women’s facilities. To adopt a utilitarian starting point, allowing trans women to be put on women’s prisons delivers the greater good for the greater number.

BravelyStunning · 06/01/2023 15:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 15:56

teawamutu · 06/01/2023 15:48

More than one. I say that's too many.

Perhaps you would like to indicate how many rapes and assaults you feel would be acceptable collateral damage to women, in order to keep males from being sad. Is there a number at which you'd say the price was too high?

I've often asked TRAs this and never had an answer, so would be v interested in yours.

There are assaults in women only spaces, such as prisons, for instance. Should everyone be kept in isolation?

lifeturnsonadime · 06/01/2023 15:53

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 15:45

Ok, so how many rapes and assaults have there been?

Just 1 is enough to tell me who the real minority is, clue it's not the same one that you believe it to be.

The fact that you think women are the bottom of the heap shows that you know, in reality, who the women are.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/01/2023 15:53

This is about a primary school. Nobody has any business gaslighting children into believing that sex isn't real, that unidentifiable gender is reality or that they can change sex.
Vulnerable children confused about which sex they are or believing that their growing bodies are wrong and need fixing with drugs and surgery that lead to infertility, life long use of drugs and surgery, are entitled to thoughtful informed professional support. Not the attention of adult activists seeking to misrepresent the law, reality and to enable the transitioning of young children

ClearlySeeingTheFuture · 06/01/2023 15:50

Oxford Languages dictionary definition of sex for the terminally confused:

"either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions"

Yes it’s no coincidence that animals don’t have genders.

teawamutu · 06/01/2023 15:48

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 15:45

Ok, so how many rapes and assaults have there been?

More than one. I say that's too many.

Perhaps you would like to indicate how many rapes and assaults you feel would be acceptable collateral damage to women, in order to keep males from being sad. Is there a number at which you'd say the price was too high?

I've often asked TRAs this and never had an answer, so would be v interested in yours.

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 06/01/2023 15:48

TeaKlaxon · 06/01/2023 11:17

What an off hill to die on since the law is clear that the EA2010 does not only apply to biological sex.

Given the number of people who mistakenly think ‘sex’ only means biological sex, saying the EA protects based on gender is arguably more accurate - contextually if not textually - given that, for example a trans woman who is discriminated against for being a woman could enjoy the same protection as a cis woman.

Based on the responses on here, simply saying EA protects against discrimination based on sex could give rise to the mistaken belief that a trans woman discriminated again for being a woman would not enjoy protection.

Did you really just plop that utter bollocks here?

Every word is disinformation, incorrect, wrong.

You really should do better.

Oh, and that meaningless word 'cis' is not welcome here. We do not accept it and MNHQ will delete posts that use it if it is reported. So please, do desist, there's a good, erm, person?!?!