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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please help! Gender not sex on a school 'protected characteristics' poster, just spoken to the Head!

994 replies

Vebrithien · 06/01/2023 09:55

Good morning,

I started this thread before Christmas

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4684558-today-i-found-my-bravery?page=1

The overview is that my DD's primary school is displaying posters by No Outsiders, which are supposed to show the 9 protected characteristics, but shows gender, not sex.

The (male) deputy head I mentioned it to, before Christmas, has not got back to me. The posters are still there.

I summoned up my courage this morning, and spoke to the Headteacher. She seemed surprised, as I said I'd already mentioned it to one deputy head, and that I'd picked up on it due to my school expecting Ofsted, and reissuing our equality training.

The Head said that it was surprising, as No Outsiders were an organisation whose specialism was equalities.

I replied that the EA2010 says sex, not gender. I also mentioned that there were some concerning resources produced by them, including an assembly where a dad wants to offer violence to children who do not accept his trans child. (I know no more than this)

The Head is going to talk to her other deputy head, whose responsibility this is, and to try to put us in contact.

Where do I do from here?

Can any one help me with evidence? What particularly is dodgy about No Outsiders?

Is there anything that states that schools mustn't misrepresent the EA?

Is there any DofE (or whatever it's called now) guidance for schools on the resources they used or how they represent the EA?

And, how should I go about finding out if the school uses other No Outsiders resources?

Please help, I want as much evidence as I can.

Still shaking with adrenaline from speaking to the Head!

OP posts:
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13
LaughingPriest · 06/01/2023 17:42

Can't say what gender is.
Can't say what trans is.
Can't say what a man is.
Can't say what a woman is.
Can't say what sex is when it isn't biological sex.
Conflating sex and gender sometimes and not others.

But yeah, you're the experts! Please, tell me all about how your risk assessment works without 'definitions' or 'knowing what gender is' Grin

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/01/2023 17:42

Do you understand what "compromise" means? As an ad agency hot shot, I imagine you understand the meaning of words?

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 17:42

ArabellaScott · 06/01/2023 17:38

Not to mention the comfort and dignity of women who are being used as props to male criminals who identify as trans.

It's this that always gets me.

'Transwomen don't want to be around males, so put them in women's prisons'
'Women don't want to have males in with them; tough tits'

What about those women who don’t see trans women as ‘males’ and are more tolerant than you?

ArabellaScott · 06/01/2023 17:41

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 17:40

because all real progress involved compromise

So a woman's 'no' has to matter less than a man's yes?

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 17:40

ArabellaScott · 06/01/2023 17:39

Why do transwomen's desires matter more than women's?

because all real progress involved compromise

LaughingPriest · 06/01/2023 17:39

If I didn't think TRAs were muddled and unable to articulate anything about gender coherently before, that's been confirmed in full technicolour now. Great job! This... this is all they have!

ArabellaScott · 06/01/2023 17:39

Why do transwomen's desires matter more than women's?

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 17:39

NecessaryScene · 06/01/2023 17:36

But you could make it risk irrespective of gender instead.

But then there wouldn't be any women's prisons for your transwomen to go into, would there? Think, McFly!

I am suggesting we have men and women’s prisons and Allie trans women (and trans men) to be placed in the prisons according to the gender they identify with.

risk can be managed within those institutions.

the ‘mcfly’ comment is childish and belies the fact you are are on the ropes argument-wise

ArabellaScott · 06/01/2023 17:38

Not to mention the comfort and dignity of women who are being used as props to male criminals who identify as trans.

It's this that always gets me.

'Transwomen don't want to be around males, so put them in women's prisons'
'Women don't want to have males in with them; tough tits'

lifeturnsonadime · 06/01/2023 17:37

Some women assault women in women’s prisons but women are but n women’s prisons.

Sexual assault is predominantly carried out by males (no matter their gender identity.

Rape is only carried out by males (no matter their gender identity).

You are in denial about the risk that trans women pose.

Not to mention the comfort and dignity of women who are being used as props to male criminals who identify as trans.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 06/01/2023 17:37

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 17:35

Some women assault women in women’s prisons but women are but n women’s prisons.

you are choosing to make the discriminating criteria gender. But you could make it risk irrespective of gender instead.

Physical assault by a person of the same sex is not the equivalent of a woman being assaulted by a male, let alone sexual assault.

You could try thinking.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/01/2023 17:37

ArabellaScott · 06/01/2023 17:36

It doesn't matter if these males who are 'psychologically female' feel more at home in the women's estate. Women don't want males in prison with them. Why does their desire matter more than the privacy, safety and dignity of the women?

This.

ArabellaScott · 06/01/2023 17:37

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 17:35

Some women assault women in women’s prisons but women are but n women’s prisons.

you are choosing to make the discriminating criteria gender. But you could make it risk irrespective of gender instead.

No woman ever risked making another woman pregnant.

and 99% of sexual assaults are carried out by males. Regardless of 'gender'.

ClitoralViolence · 06/01/2023 17:36

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 16:33

The number right now is minuscule. As we are learning more about this better risk assessment can be carried out and minuscule can be reduced to even more so.

The entire anti trans stance I’ve encountered on this thread seems to be entirely driven by ideology and irrational fear flying in the face of any data, all amounting to a classic ‘moral panic’.

The klaxon has been too very generous so far but this is

Clitoral Violence

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 06/01/2023 17:36

There is no ‘gay gene’ that has been identified. Yet, I would assume you would regard it as true that some people legitimately claim to be gay. Likewise it should be for gender.

Being gay is observable though. My lesbian and gay friends have same sex husbands and wives with whom they live. Not so much public snogging these days but there was a fair bit when we were younger.

How is this similar to being trans?

Oh, and for the record, I'm not a Tory. I'm left wing and liberal.

ArabellaScott · 06/01/2023 17:36

It doesn't matter if these males who are 'psychologically female' feel more at home in the women's estate. Women don't want males in prison with them. Why does their desire matter more than the privacy, safety and dignity of the women?

NecessaryScene · 06/01/2023 17:36

But you could make it risk irrespective of gender instead.

But then there wouldn't be any women's prisons for your transwomen to go into, would there? Think, McFly!

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 06/01/2023 17:35

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 17:32

Why?

Read the posts around yours. Answer some of those questions.

You are arguing from a position of illogic. Your ideas are dangerous to women.

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 17:35

lifeturnsonadime · 06/01/2023 17:32

Because most trans women don’t assault anyone in prison

But some do rape women in women's prisons.

Most men don't assault or rape women either but they are kept out of women's prisons.

What's the difference?

Some women assault women in women’s prisons but women are but n women’s prisons.

you are choosing to make the discriminating criteria gender. But you could make it risk irrespective of gender instead.

NecessaryScene · 06/01/2023 17:34

'psychologically women' - what does that involve?

Clearly doesn't affect behaviour, whatever it is.

Empirically, we can tell "gender identity" as described does not exist from the fact that in the trans population, every sex-correlated thing continues to proceed according to sex.

If there's a violent offender, >90% chance he's male. And that remains true in the trans population. So it's entirely unsurprising that the first executed trans person the other day in the US was a "transwoman".

(If anyone is aware of any sex-correlated thing actually swapping in the trans population, let me know.)

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 06/01/2023 17:34

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 17:31

Younger transsexuals increasingly don’t do that

Receipts please.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 06/01/2023 17:33

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 17:31

Because most trans women don’t assault anyone in prison. So why layer on the added cruelty of putting them in a prison in which they don’t psychologically ‘fit’

Most men don't assault menin prisons.

So why add a layer of cruelty to woman by locking them in a cell with men who sexually assault them?

Just one is too many.

NancyDrawed · 06/01/2023 17:33

But they are psychologically women so it’s humane to put them in women’s prisons

.. with male bodies, whether or not they have had surgeries to appear more feminine

So it's inhumane for the women who are locked up to be forced to share their spaces with men who believe themselves to be women (they are not and can never be)

ArabellaScott · 06/01/2023 17:33

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/01/2023 17:32

But they are psychologically women so it’s humane to put them in women’s prisons

Again, what constitutes a "trans woman", as a male?

Please do furnish an answer.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/01/2023 17:33

Younger transsexuals increasingly don’t do that

What is a "transsexual"?

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