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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please help! Gender not sex on a school 'protected characteristics' poster, just spoken to the Head!

994 replies

Vebrithien · 06/01/2023 09:55

Good morning,

I started this thread before Christmas

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4684558-today-i-found-my-bravery?page=1

The overview is that my DD's primary school is displaying posters by No Outsiders, which are supposed to show the 9 protected characteristics, but shows gender, not sex.

The (male) deputy head I mentioned it to, before Christmas, has not got back to me. The posters are still there.

I summoned up my courage this morning, and spoke to the Headteacher. She seemed surprised, as I said I'd already mentioned it to one deputy head, and that I'd picked up on it due to my school expecting Ofsted, and reissuing our equality training.

The Head said that it was surprising, as No Outsiders were an organisation whose specialism was equalities.

I replied that the EA2010 says sex, not gender. I also mentioned that there were some concerning resources produced by them, including an assembly where a dad wants to offer violence to children who do not accept his trans child. (I know no more than this)

The Head is going to talk to her other deputy head, whose responsibility this is, and to try to put us in contact.

Where do I do from here?

Can any one help me with evidence? What particularly is dodgy about No Outsiders?

Is there anything that states that schools mustn't misrepresent the EA?

Is there any DofE (or whatever it's called now) guidance for schools on the resources they used or how they represent the EA?

And, how should I go about finding out if the school uses other No Outsiders resources?

Please help, I want as much evidence as I can.

Still shaking with adrenaline from speaking to the Head!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 18:25

ClitoralViolence · 06/01/2023 18:23

Some of us do have skills. Go on, admit it. You're a # little bit jealous of the power of Bigly letters.

And besides, what happened to your flounce? Did you decide to deflounce? I wish you'd stick to your convictions. Oh wait, they've wavered thoughout the entire thread.

Keep on transplaining. Its all very amusing.

I am a little envious TBH. The bigs looked quite striking.

ClitoralViolence · 06/01/2023 18:23

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 18:21

Big letters in n bold! Nice skillz

Some of us do have skills. Go on, admit it. You're a # little bit jealous of the power of Bigly letters.

And besides, what happened to your flounce? Did you decide to deflounce? I wish you'd stick to your convictions. Oh wait, they've wavered thoughout the entire thread.

Keep on transplaining. Its all very amusing.

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 18:21

ClitoralViolence · 06/01/2023 18:19

Clitoral Violence

Big letters in n bold! Nice skillz

ClitoralViolence · 06/01/2023 18:19

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 18:18

quite the contrary - I am the gender queer future. You lot are the past.

Clitoral Violence

Wellies54 · 06/01/2023 18:18

Being gay = being attracted to someone of the same sex
Being transsexual = believing you are/feeling like/wanting to be a member of the opposite sex. Key point to note: believing you are a member of the opposite sex does not make you an actual member of the opposite sex. That's just basic biology and logic.

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 18:18

pattihews · 06/01/2023 18:16

Gayness is an observable and studiable phenomenon. Same-sex attraction is really simple and easy to define: it's not a random and unknowable set of inexplicable feelings, it's a behaviour. The fact that in places like Iran, where same-sex attraction is heavily stigmatised and can end in imprisonment and death, LGB still risk same-sex relationships is evidence that it's not just a choice. Have you ever stopped to think how homophobic you sound? You sound like some 1950s throwback asserting that there's no such thing as homosexual desire. Or aren't you concerned about LGB people? Is being gay out of date in your modern book?

quite the contrary - I am the gender queer future. You lot are the past.

NecessaryScene · 06/01/2023 18:17

Can somebody archive this and post it onto the the never happens thread?

The first 16 pages have been on archive dot is. It's a keeper.

(Although I still think this is one of you ladies with a funny mask, and I'm waiting for the Scooby-Doo reveal).

pattihews · 06/01/2023 18:16

Gayness is an observable and studiable phenomenon. Same-sex attraction is really simple and easy to define: it's not a random and unknowable set of inexplicable feelings, it's a behaviour. The fact that in places like Iran, where same-sex attraction is heavily stigmatised and can end in imprisonment and death, LGB still risk same-sex relationships is evidence that it's not just a choice. Have you ever stopped to think how homophobic you sound? You sound like some 1950s throwback asserting that there's no such thing as homosexual desire. Or aren't you concerned about LGB people? Is being gay out of date in your modern book?

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 06/01/2023 18:15

As is transsexualism

How? And what is transsexualism? How does it differ from transgender?

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 18:15

Basically everyone is running off because no one has a good answer for why if gayness cannot be proven biologically then the fact that gender orientation cannot either should mean there is no issue with recognising self identification in terms of gender.

summat for y’all to mull over on the weekend and hopefully emerge more tolerant people.

ClitoralViolence · 06/01/2023 18:15

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/01/2023 18:01

They'll be desperate to get this deleted.

Can somebody archive this and post it onto the the never happens thread?

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 18:13

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 06/01/2023 18:06

if gayness cannot be proven biologically then the fact that gender orientation cannot either should mean there is no issue with recognising self identification in terms of gender

Gayness is an observable reality.

As is transsexualism

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 06/01/2023 18:12

I too am signing out.

That was just stunning!

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 06/01/2023 18:11

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/01/2023 18:01

They'll be desperate to get this deleted.

Yep!

ArabellaScott · 06/01/2023 18:11

There's not really much worth discussing with someone this steeped in lesbophobia, misogyny and just common-or-garden bullshit. Cheery bye.

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 18:11

ArabellaScott · 06/01/2023 18:09

Fucking hell.

Uh?

whereaw · 06/01/2023 18:11

@EastLondonObserver what is the need for having single-sex (or single-gender) spaces in your view? Should we not have them at all?

ClitoralViolence · 06/01/2023 18:10

ArabellaScott · 06/01/2023 17:48

And the risk of the male person triggering PTSD in women? How is that managed? Women are forced to shower with transwomen in prison, did you know that? Women have been raped and at least one impregnated in the US.

But you know, 'greater good'.

Declining birthrates and all that... greater good y'know.

Unbelievable.

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 06/01/2023 18:10

ArabellaScott · 06/01/2023 18:09

Fucking hell.

Quite. This is really something to behold.

ArabellaScott · 06/01/2023 18:09

Fucking hell.

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 18:09

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/01/2023 18:08

Always the forced teaming! Thank heavens so many of us in the LGB community see this for what it is.

What is ‘forced teaming’?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/01/2023 18:08

Always the forced teaming! Thank heavens so many of us in the LGB community see this for what it is.

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 18:08

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 06/01/2023 18:04

An attempt to get us riled up and the thread deleted, I think.

I haven't owned any dungarees for years but I quite fancy some now they've been mentioned. I hear there's a good dungaree shop in Bunbury, not far from me.

It’s a reference to the character Millie Tant in Viz comic. She is not referred to as lesbian. But she is tolerant.

ClitoralViolence · 06/01/2023 18:07

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 17:43

In this instance the greater good is served by a trans women’s desires trumping the desires of those women who don’t want trans women in women’s prisons. Yes, absolutely.

And there it is.

Let me correct that statement for you.
In this instance the greater good is served by a trans women’s desires trumping the safety and dignity of those women who don’t want trans women in women’s prisons. Yes, absolutely.

Shut up wims you don't matter. Your only raison d'etre is to validate transwomens womanly feelz.

NecessaryScene · 06/01/2023 18:07

if gayness cannot be proven biologically then the fact that gender orientation cannot either should mean there is no issue with recognising self identification in terms of gender

You're right - we should basically treat them the same. No segregation by sexual orientation (I assume that's what you mean by "gender orientation") or by "gender" (whatever that is).

Any attempt to distinguish in day-to-day life by either is futile, due to the fact it's hard to identify. Not that it would necessarily gain anything if you did.

Whereas we do segregate (in some circumstances) by sex, because it's immediately physically obvious, and it is very significant in terms of behaviour and outcomes.