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Original poster

How feminists have let down Muslim women and girls

214 replies

beastlyslumber · 15/12/2022 09:59

This is a brilliant conversation with Yasmine Mohammed, talking about how liberal feminism has betrayed women and girls, what the wearing of hijab really means for girls, how women are being enslaved and tortured by Sharia law. And why feminists need to start caring.

open.spotify.com/episode/4yNPedvPGE2lZ4uPtYViot

That's the spotify link. I'll link it on apple music as well: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/e208-yasmine-mohammed-discusses-how-western-liberals/id1437447846?i=1000587384528

Hopefully one of those links will work for you!

Yasmine Mohammed, author of Unveiled: How Western Liberals Empower Radical Islam , shares her story of growing up in a fundamentalist Islamic home in Canada. At 13, when she tried to report the abuse she suffered at the hands of her step-father, she was told by a judge “you come from a different culture, and that’s how your family chooses to discipline you, so we just have to accept that.”

And here lies the inherent contradiction in the way in which the West views fundamentalist Islam versus other fundamentalist religions, and turns a blind eye to the abuse and suffering of millions of girls and women. She and Bridget discuss how alienating that is, the message those girls receive is “we don’t care about you, you are ‘other.'”

They cover the escalation of rape culture, sexual harassment, the problems with celebrating the hijab, the indoctrination of attitudes towards girls and women in Muslim culture, and being called Islamophobic for criticizing a tool and system of oppression. They bond over shared traumatic experiences and discuss their belief that if you can use your own trauma to help others, it has not happened in vain. If you only ever listen to one episode of Walk-Ins Welcome, this is the episode.

OP posts:
LangClegsInSpace · 16/12/2022 16:32

It should be about choice. That's all.

I'm not sure about this. It's a bit third-wave 'choicy' feminism isn't it?

It's the same argument that crops up on discussions about make up, hair removal, cosmetic surgery, BDSM, 'sex work', surrogacy ... etc. etc. etc.

It's not usual on this forum for posters to say, 'Oh well, as long as it's your / their choice, that's that, discussion closed.' Usually we dig a bit deeper than that and explore the cultural meanings and the effects on all women and girls, not just on those who make whatever choice it is, but also on those who don't, as well as those who are effectively forced into it.

Why is this different?

Original poster
beastlyslumber · 16/12/2022 16:22

HBGKC · 16/12/2022 16:21

@beastlyslumber could you link to 'the very long thread discussing the influx of males from Muslim countries into the UK?' pls?
I missed it.

Yes - but I don't know how to do that on my phone! Will be back in a while and if someone hasn't given you the link in the meantime, I'll do it then!

OP posts:
HBGKC · 16/12/2022 16:21

@beastlyslumber could you link to 'the very long thread discussing the influx of males from Muslim countries into the UK?' pls?
I missed it.

beastlyslumber · 16/12/2022 16:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

EndlessTea · 16/12/2022 16:18

Ohtheweatheroutsideistoocold · 16/12/2022 16:14

That prejudice and sarcasm didn’t give the impression of someone willing to engage, just an intention to put people down for having the conversation.

That could be said of more than those two posters though

They weren’t the only two told to listen to the podcast- someone else was complaining about the word ‘feminists’ in the OP, but didn’t come back and labour the issue, so a firm line didn’t need to be taken.

EndlessTea · 16/12/2022 16:17

if Muslim people are not allowed to join the conversation,

Everyone can join the conversation, if they aren’t trying to stop it happening and are willing to engage with the OP.

or are only allowed to join if they have a view point you agree with,

Engaging with the OP isn’t the same as agreeing with the OP.

how precisely is feminism going to help them?

This last point doesn’t follow from the other two unproven points.

beastlyslumber · 16/12/2022 16:15

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ohtheweatheroutsideistoocold · 16/12/2022 16:14

That prejudice and sarcasm didn’t give the impression of someone willing to engage, just an intention to put people down for having the conversation.

That could be said of more than those two posters though

Ohtheweatheroutsideistoocold · 16/12/2022 16:12

beastlyslumber · 16/12/2022 16:09

Okay, well I'm sorry if either poster was offended (although not sure why they need you to be offended on their behalf) but it didn't seem like either of them was actually interested in the discussion. They seemed to want the discussion not to happen and I wanted to allow it to
happen.

But one way or another I guess it was always going to get derailed.

I didn't say they were offended, I wouldnt speak on their behalf. I didn't say I was offended on their behalf. I just pointed out the inconsistency in approach.

And I am unsure how asking the question

Out of interest, if Muslim people are not allowed to join the conversation, or are only allowed to join if they have a view point you agree with, how precisely is feminism going to help them?

Is derailing a thread entitled 'how feminism has let down Muslim girls and women'

Seems pretty pertinent to me

Original poster
beastlyslumber · 16/12/2022 16:09

Okay, well I'm sorry if either poster was offended (although not sure why they need you to be offended on their behalf) but it didn't seem like either of them was actually interested in the discussion. They seemed to want the discussion not to happen and I wanted to allow it to
happen.

But one way or another I guess it was always going to get derailed.

OP posts:
EndlessTea · 16/12/2022 16:05

Ohtheweatheroutsideistoocold · 16/12/2022 16:00

Actually @Emmmie didn't. She pointed out that one Muslim could not speak for all Muslim women, just as she herself could not speak for all Muslim women and say that they all liked wearing a hijab. She asked that we listened to all women's viewpoints. And then she got asked to stop putting forward her viewpoint.

If you cannot see the problem with that the fair enough, but to me the response to her was problematic

Show quote history

She said “I mean let's educate poor feeble minded women, they just don't see how stupid they are being.” - without even listening to it, very early in the thread.

That prejudice and sarcasm didn’t give the impression of someone willing to engage, just an intention to put people down for having the conversation.

Ohtheweatheroutsideistoocold · 16/12/2022 16:00

EndlessTea · 16/12/2022 15:45

Both Emmmie and CleanTheChicken made it clear they were Muslim.

That wasn’t all they had in common. They both posted prohibitively.

Actually @Emmmie didn't. She pointed out that one Muslim could not speak for all Muslim women, just as she herself could not speak for all Muslim women and say that they all liked wearing a hijab. She asked that we listened to all women's viewpoints. And then she got asked to stop putting forward her viewpoint.

If you cannot see the problem with that the fair enough, but to me the response to her was problematic

EndlessTea · 16/12/2022 15:58

They could have the good grace to listen to the first 15 minutes or so of the podcast, surely?

Ohtheweatheroutsideistoocold · 16/12/2022 15:55

I'm not bullying you, I'm giving you my perspective. You can tell me I am a bully and making accusations but it doesn't change the fact that the only people who have been asked to leave the thread are Muslim.

Out of interest, if Muslim people are not allowed to join the conversation, or are only allowed to join if they have a view point you agree with, how precisely is feminism going to help them?

EndlessTea · 16/12/2022 15:50

Yes it seems like that they wanted to stop any criticisms of their patriarchal religion on a feminist board BeastlySlumber.

Original poster
beastlyslumber · 16/12/2022 15:48

Ohtheweatheroutsideistoocold · 16/12/2022 15:43

Both @Emmmie and @CleanTheChicken made it clear they were Muslim.

They are not the only people on the thread to not have listened to the podcast. They were the only ones who were told their contributions were unwelcome.

You may not wish to admit to bias, unconscious or otherwise. But there is a difference in your tone when you are posting to the two people I've mentioned compared to other posters.

Show quote history

I don't think I was unfair at all in what I said in response to their comments. They both made it clear they had no interest in the podcast and thought it was hateful and shit. So I think it was fair enough to say their comments were not relevant.

You can call me whatever names you like but it's just bullying and it won't work on me.

OP posts:
EndlessTea · 16/12/2022 15:45

Both Emmmie and CleanTheChicken made it clear they were Muslim.

That wasn’t all they had in common. They both posted prohibitively.

EndlessTea · 16/12/2022 15:43

In the podcast they do touch on that. Both of the women were brought up thinking that they would burn in hell if they didn’t do xyz. Yasmine as a Muslim and Bridget as a Catholic. Yasmine mentions a passage in the Qur’an where the prophet has a vision of women hung by their hair and their brains are boiling because they showed their hair in public. The point was in the discussion, if you believe that one option leads to eternal damnation and the other to heaven, it’s not much of a freely taken choice. Or if you choose one option you are a dirty, hateful slut, and if you choose the other you are a good woman or girl, which choice are you going to take? So covering the hair doesn’t need to be mandated by law for it to not really be a choice.

Ohtheweatheroutsideistoocold · 16/12/2022 15:43

beastlyslumber · 16/12/2022 15:36

Not really. I just asked people to listen to the podcast before commenting on the podcast. But it seems like people just want to talk about hijab generally without reference to any of the ideas discussed in the podcast so my attempts to keep the thread on topic were futile.

Obviously Muslim women are welcome to contribute. I have no idea what religion any pp have so you can stop with the accusations.

Both @Emmmie and @CleanTheChicken made it clear they were Muslim.

They are not the only people on the thread to not have listened to the podcast. They were the only ones who were told their contributions were unwelcome.

You may not wish to admit to bias, unconscious or otherwise. But there is a difference in your tone when you are posting to the two people I've mentioned compared to other posters.

Original poster
beastlyslumber · 16/12/2022 15:36

Not really. I just asked people to listen to the podcast before commenting on the podcast. But it seems like people just want to talk about hijab generally without reference to any of the ideas discussed in the podcast so my attempts to keep the thread on topic were futile.

Obviously Muslim women are welcome to contribute. I have no idea what religion any pp have so you can stop with the accusations.

OP posts:
Ohtheweatheroutsideistoocold · 16/12/2022 15:24

turbonerd · 16/12/2022 15:12

I meant no religious code has forced me to wear thongs.

It didn’t seem to me that the point of this thread was to imply ALL muslim women are forced to wear a hijab. I reckon people know that many don’t.
But that some do, and feel forced to do so, and could we please Open a discussion on that.

tThe issue of it being an actual choice vs being forced.
The issue with modesty clothing; that women are the keepers of the family honour.

I know there are requirements for men in the fringes of the major religions, and in the more minor too, but it does not seem to be as widespread.

apart from that - I reserve the right to laugh at anything I find funny 🤡

I think we would need a new thread to open that discussion unfortunately

The OP has been quite clear that this thread is only to discuss the podcast, to the point of telling two Muslim posters that their contributions on hijab wearing aren't welcome unless they listen to the podcast

I'm not sure any conversation on how feminism can help Muslim women can be productive if Muslim women are not allowed to contribute their own life experiences without jumping through hoops first. Its very white saviour (although granted I don't know the race of any posters, I merely mean it comes across as white saviour)

turbonerd · 16/12/2022 15:12

I meant no religious code has forced me to wear thongs.

It didn’t seem to me that the point of this thread was to imply ALL muslim women are forced to wear a hijab. I reckon people know that many don’t.
But that some do, and feel forced to do so, and could we please Open a discussion on that.

tThe issue of it being an actual choice vs being forced.
The issue with modesty clothing; that women are the keepers of the family honour.

I know there are requirements for men in the fringes of the major religions, and in the more minor too, but it does not seem to be as widespread.

apart from that - I reserve the right to laugh at anything I find funny 🤡

turbonerd · 16/12/2022 14:57

YetAnotherSpartacus · 16/12/2022 10:09

Is it mormonphobic of me that I thought their underwear was very funny? I may have snorted just a bit. 😂

Probably not, just rude. Maybe not for the private snorting but for telling us all about it as if you want to invite us in to what you think is a joke.

Personally, I think that thongs are fucking hilarious, usually made of synthetics and apt to cause injury including chaffing, abscesses and clitoral injuries.

Well, that seems to have annoyed you @YetAnotherSpartacus

I don’t like thongs either, and thankfully no social code has forced me to wear any either.

EndlessTea · 16/12/2022 13:05

Muslim women are not a homogenous group.

Neither are ‘Western women’, but for the purposes of discussion, it makes sense to generalise.

Otherwise it’s a bit like a bloke coming into a feminist discussion and ‘not all men’-ing all over the place. It’s predictable and tedious.