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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women's rights general conversations

986 replies

Kucingsparkles · 06/12/2022 15:14

This is an experimental thread, all input much appreciated!

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

Right, bring on the flames or flowers! <cowers>

OP posts:
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Sequenca · 07/12/2022 10:55

CyanCyan · 07/12/2022 10:51

This discussion is giving me flashbacks to that Guardian column from the mum who jollily sought out a nice, polite young prostitute for her autistic son. Even the left-wing media peddles this fantasy.

Tasslehoof is one of the refugees from the Guardian associated forum that arrived here last week so this makes sense.

CyanCyan · 07/12/2022 10:51

This discussion is giving me flashbacks to that Guardian column from the mum who jollily sought out a nice, polite young prostitute for her autistic son. Even the left-wing media peddles this fantasy.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 07/12/2022 10:50

A further note. I don't generally go arpund boasting about what Lady Bountiful acts I have performed this week. But seeing as I started last night, it's time to drum home a serious point.

I earn approx £11 per hour for a 37.5 work week. By the standards I grew up in, this is the heights of luxury, and I feel pretty well off at the moment, so I donate to the local outreach service that works with prostituted women and the food bank. I don't ask anyone there to get me off first.

If I can afford to do that, the men who spend their disposable income on prostitution also can. They're choosing not to. They're choosing to use their current financial situation to extort sex acts from women who wouldn't have anything to do with them otherwise.

One of the things feminism means is having the same moral expectations of men as we do of women and this is an example where society doesn't.

ArabellaScott · 07/12/2022 10:39

This is a good article on consent and prostitution.

nordicmodelnow.org/facts-about-prostitution/fact-prostitution-is-predicated-on-foregoing-the-right-to-refuse-sex/

ArabellaScott · 07/12/2022 10:32

Thanks for that thread, Squeaky. Any woman who has ever been homeless or precariously housed will find that very recognisable.

Girls are groomed from birth to be decorative, sexually available entertainment for men. We're taught our power rests in our bodies, so long as they are judged attractive and desirable. We are raised to believe that 'selling ourselves' is a valid and healthy choice. A performer, a model, a bride. All suggest to girls that a desirable life path is to sell their body, their image, their sexual availability. To be a passive object men can project onto, and/or use.

These are common 'dreams' sold to little girls and spun on across all the media. Beauty pageants, swimsuit competitions, fashion spreads, cheerleaders, porn, strippers, etc. Servicing the male gaze/male desire is a huge industry. Porn culture is pervasive. We absorb the message that our sexual desirability is equivalent to our worth very, very deeply.

If one considers society as set up with males holding much of the power (economic, political, physical), and virtually all girls encouraged to fit into that unequal power structure by ensuring they be attractive, available, and for sale, then I'm not really sure whether meaningful consent is really possible.

In an unequal relationship - teacher/student, boss/employee, etc, we don't consider that it's possible. I cannot see how a male punter/woman dynamic is any less unequal. The sex act (or lack of) seems almost irrelevant - it's the power dynamic that is crucial, and that is uneven. I'd say it's degrading, risky, dangerous, frightening, for any woman to have 'sold herself' to a man. Always.

Plasticfreefantastic · 07/12/2022 10:19

PoppySeedBagelRedux · 07/12/2022 07:07

I agree. Maybe there should be an award for the funniest contribution, if there isn't already? Reading the nominees would be a tonic, as well.

This article sums up the deadening impact of TRSOH nicely, I think:

Intolerance leads to McDonald’s of the mind.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3983d1b8-70ea-11ed-a188-d2cb771901d6?shareToken=e2cb485aa337fbb57494a6197ccc8a000_

I'd love to see a humour award. So many funny women.

And I also agree with posts pointing out to a male poster that he's not listening to the points being made. It would be great instead of just leaving the thread if he listened to the points being made.

SqueakyDinosaur · 07/12/2022 09:37

This thread sets out a personal experience of how hard it can be for young, vulnerably-housed women to avoid sexual exploitation up to and including prostitution. It’s pretty grim.

twitter.com/guillotesque/status/1599717594516189184?s=20&t=Zfo9WtcvKUIVvdoBZpZZPw

Helleofabore · 07/12/2022 09:36

Rainforrest · 07/12/2022 09:15

I've just been catching up with the thread, is @TassLeHoff one of the male influx from 'the other place?'

Yes.

Kucingsparkles · 07/12/2022 09:29

Well, it all blew up overnight! I'm 100% in agreement with the women on here. I feel extremely strongly about prostitution and all the other ways that female bodies are exploited in service of men and the patriarchy. Also don't get me started on choicey-choicey fauxminism Angry

But on a lighted note, @HopRockers I loved that Twitter link. Women, celebrating what our bodies are capable of, and quietly rebelling, since prehistory!

OP posts:
Rainforrest · 07/12/2022 09:15

I've just been catching up with the thread, is @TassLeHoff one of the male influx from 'the other place?'

QuickNameChangeAgain · 07/12/2022 09:11

Name changed as I've discussed this on other sm platforms and I don't want anyone linking my accounts.

My thoughts lately have been on charities and safeguarding children. I was thinking TrevorSpace, part of Trevor Project (the one Daniel Radcliffe is involved with) needs to be under closer scrutiny as apparently TrevorSpace is an affirming, online community for LGBTQ young people between the ages of 13-24 years old.

Gays Against Groomers have written an article about TrevorSpace and it's very concerning. I'm sure most interactions are fine but it's a paradise for opportunists. Who thought that putting adults together with young teens was a good idea?

Anyway, I'm surprised the report hasn't been talked about more.

www.gaysagainstgroomers.com/post/trevorspace-a-pedophile-s-paradise

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 07/12/2022 08:22

Its. I think my autocorrect elf is a reincarnated greengrocer.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 07/12/2022 08:21

I see @HopRockers got here first with the archaeology Tweet I came to post. I agree that merits it's own thread, if you'd like to start one? There's so little known about the women of prehistory (or, indeed, most of history).

OmiOmy · 07/12/2022 07:17

This is the nominations from last year. Warm fuzzy feelings. 😊

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4427575-Nominations-open-OFFICIAL-FWR-Women-of-the-Year-Awards-2021

PoppySeedBagelRedux · 07/12/2022 07:07

I agree. Maybe there should be an award for the funniest contribution, if there isn't already? Reading the nominees would be a tonic, as well.

This article sums up the deadening impact of TRSOH nicely, I think:

Intolerance leads to McDonald’s of the mind.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3983d1b8-70ea-11ed-a188-d2cb771901d6?shareToken=e2cb485aa337fbb57494a6197ccc8a000_

SulisMinerva · 07/12/2022 05:52

That’s a great thread Hop.

Women of the year for 2022 would be good to see. There are so many inspiring women and it’s nice to have a reminder of them all in one place. Worth celebrating what women can achieve.

One of the things I’ve enjoyed about women’s activism in this area is the humour. Such a contrast to the puritanical zeal of the other side.

IcakethereforeIam · 07/12/2022 02:06

This seems apposite

thecritic.co.uk/the-sex-trade-is-inherently-unsafe/

HatThatWearsYou · 07/12/2022 01:23

Yes, thanks @HopRockers that was a really good thread

Helleofabore · 07/12/2022 01:22

Great twitter thread hop.

That would be a great thread here by itself. It really is a heartening share.

thanks

ErrolTheDragon · 07/12/2022 01:06

HopRockers · 07/12/2022 00:53

FFS I was enjoying this thread before the MRA popped up cos where else is a self(& only self)-respecting MRA going to be?

Urgh.

I enjoyed this Twitter thread - women's acts of rebellion matter & reverberate.
mobile.twitter.com/FourthWaver/status/1600275266839846912

Thanks!
A Woman Has Drawn is a lot more interesting than A Man Has Spoken, for sure.

HopRockers · 07/12/2022 00:53

FFS I was enjoying this thread before the MRA popped up cos where else is a self(& only self)-respecting MRA going to be?

Urgh.

I enjoyed this Twitter thread - women's acts of rebellion matter & reverberate.
mobile.twitter.com/FourthWaver/status/1600275266839846912

Helleofabore · 07/12/2022 00:42

I am deeply suspect of the credibility of any man who discusses prostitution in that way, and who declares themselves more knowledgeable than women on the topic.

Helleofabore · 07/12/2022 00:27

IReallyLikeCrows

Yes. All this talk about ‘safe environments’ and ‘co-ops’ is a sop for people to ignore the reality.

Very few women would make the choice to have strange dicks shoved into their bodies if they had real choices…. Or at least felt they had real choices.

The potential for harm is huge no matter how any ‘safe environment’ is portrayed.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 07/12/2022 00:26

Testimonial injustice—what witnesses are believed, who is considered credible

Testimonial Injustice

HatThatWearsYou · 07/12/2022 00:20

Oh and convince themselves that they are Nice Guys in the meantime.

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