Women's rights general conversations

Yes, @namitynamechange - I remember that coming up.in one of my degree modules. Same with the 'gin makes you sad' myth. Alcohol does have neurological effects, but how they manifest is largely cultural. You do what you believe alcohol gives you permission to do.

@DameMaud I agree, but I'm not sure of the etiquette about lifting someone else's thread (and it would be a shame to split the diacussion). I'm half expecting it to get moved over here anyway.

There an article in the guardian today on the trend for choking during sex

“It made me sad to think about the amount of girls who would have just “gone along with it” in that moment – including myself a few years ago. I would have known myself well enough to know that being choked wasn’t something that sexually turned me on, however I don’t know if I would have been able to distinguish between enjoying a sexual encounter because the man I was with was enjoying it, or because I truly enjoyed it myself.”

I think this doesn’t go far enough - this isn’t a benign sexual technique where you tolerate something that just doesn’t do it for you. At best it is a risky activity between consenting adults, at worst it is used as a “rough sex” defence in rape cases. Having a man who is bigger and stronger than you suddenly put his hands round your neck when you’ve made yourself vulnerable is a horrific concept to me.

Particularly when the man has completely misunderstood the original concept of asphyxiation being about restriction of blood flow to the brain to seek a high (and that didn’t worked out well for Michael Hutchence) and is instead getting off on the power play of it.

But I agree with the advising young women not to get too drunk. Its hard thugh because you get caught in a double trap - if you suggest women be cautious round men its man hating/suggesting all men are rapists/paranoid etc. If they don't and anything bad happens though its "she put herself at risk".

regarding the men getting drunk and reverting to their "natural animal instincts". Its worth pointing out that people from different countries find alcohol affects them differently. e.g there was a study that apparently showed it makes British people more aggressive but Italians not so much. There is no physiological difference Italians and English people - however English people have the perception that drinking alcohol makes them more aggressive, so it does - it gives them permission basically. The same as in some abusive relationships where the man is "only abusive when drunk" but will use the threat of getting drunk to intimidate their partners.
So - I suspect the whole "men can't help themselves when drunk because evolution" is a bullshit excuse/self fulfilling prophecy. If I actually thought drinking would make me do terrible things I would never drink personally.

Yes we absolutely should, and the rape prosecution statistics are appalling. There should be greater sentences for men raping drunk women, no 'she shouldn't have been drunk' get-outs. Women should be allowed to get drunk, and not censured for it. But I would still advise young women not to get drunk.

I think this one could be worth its own thread here on FWR Bin?

We should be advising men to make sure they don’t either, judging by this comment:

That’s true. Leaving the alcohol issue to one side it must spotlight the biological differences between men and women. Biologically we need to reproduce as all living species do. In mammals we have egg producing females and sperm producing males. Women ovulate monthly and are most fertile at certain times and so their sexual drive differs from men who have to be ready to mate at any time and are quickly aroused sexually. Let’s compare that to dogs. When a b.itch is on heat all the dogs in the vicinity will be attracted to mate. You might respond that we are not animals. Well basically we are. However our intellect and reasoning prevents us from behaving like that. Unless something affects our intellect and reasoning. Which is where we get back to alcohol.

Thank you for this wonderful description @Mmmnotsure .
It's made me definitely want to go to the next one!

I was going to post that, too! Terrifying.

Having read The Case Against the Sexual Revolution by Louise Perry I would always recommend to young women that they make sure they don't get drunk. I know they should be able to do what they want, but you have to be realistic, and live in the world we live in not the one we should live in. Putting themselves in danger to make a point isn't very sensible.

I've not read the report yet, but this promises to be interesting: www.mumsnet.com/talk/academics_corner/4693751-david-renton-yes-that-one-on-gender-critical-beliefs-academic-freedom-and-the-right-to-protest

(For those of you who share my inability to remember people's names, Garden Court Chanbers may ring more of a bell )

Enjoyed this in the comments:

Four rape prevention tips:

If someone is drunk, don’t rape them.

When you see someone walking by themselves, leave them alone.

Use the buddy system. If it is difficult for you to stop yourself from raping someone, ask a trusted friend to accompany you at all times.

Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to rape someone, blow the whistle until someone comes to stop you.

Rape culture portrays men as powerless to act against their violent sexual urges, forces women to police their own clothing, beverages, behaviours and sexuality, and is demeaning for everyone.

Everyone should speak out against rape culture

Reply:

Is this a joke? You’d tell your own daughter not to worry because rapists will police themselves.

How is that working for burglars, car thieves, terrorists, shoplifters, child snatchers and war mongers in your world?

Article in the Times this morning about a woman who goes undercover on a night out:

I was followed to my hotel room after a night out. No one intervened

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/74c22ecc-762c-11ed-be91-363346a310de?shareToken=548617feb89ef9f64207572fd0e09838

You're all too bloody interesting, nearly 400 posts I've missed and won't be able to read till tomorrow!

Place marking ...

Similar here. I don't like that prostitution exists but thought that legalisation, regulation etc would greatly reduce the dangers.

The more I read the more it would feel like blessing a horror.

I wonder if they'll make an exception and call (or at least tweet) the police if there's an act of Literal Violence such as a sticker they don't like?

That's terrifying @NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision

What form do we think this so called transformative justice will take?

Why don't men's rights activists care more about children growing up in poverty due to absent fathers who don't pay child support?

50% of those children are boys.

Oh, it's because they're adult men's rights activists. They don't care about their sons or little boys.

😆

Oddly enough, it often seems 'men's rights activists' are more concerned about criticising whatever feminists are concerned about, rather than with the exploitation of those men within their workplaces.

That older Brenda's O'Neil piece is hilariously incoherent, but I was particularly tickled by:

modern feminism [...] seems far more concerned with certain working men’s hanging of Page 3 calendars on their workplace walls, for example, than with the exploitation of those men within their workplaces.

Well. Yes.

Directly followed by "raising awareness of the police's complicity in violence and sexual violence". This isn't about bike theft, is it.

So they're going to pressure rape victims to participate in "transformative justice" alternatives, while reminding them of all the rapists in the police.

Do I believe the police forces of the UK contain far too many unconvicted rapists and perpetrators of domestic violence? Yes. Do I believe the answer to that is to let student rapists get away with their rapes too? Absolutely not.

steering away from promoting the police and the carceral justice system as the only channel that survivors could pursue, while raising awareness of the police’s complicity in violence and sexual violence.

'Survivors' does rather imply they are talking about the very serious end of crime.

@SqueakyDinosaur
Re the Filia conference, I'm sure there are lots of posters who could tell you better, but my experience:
it was the first time, and I went on my own not knowing anyone else who was going, so was nervous about the whole thing to be honest.
Only went to the main conference sessions as was too disorganised (and unsure) to book the smaller sessions in time.

It was fascinating. The session with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and others talking about Iran was eye-opening. You got a real sense of the dangers and reality of living as a woman in Iran, from people who knew and were given space to talk about it. The session on woman's sports including Sharron Davies and the mother of one of the swimmers who had to swim against Lia Thomas similar - you got a much better feel for what it was really like, lots of specific details and an understanding of how incredibly personally unfair it was.

I sat in on other sessions that I had no expectations of, and learnt a lot about all kinds of aspects of feminism, both historical and geographically diverse.

The conversations - you couldn't sit down without someone talking to you. I got used to sitting down at a table to eat/drink - any table - and to almost immediately get into honest, personal conversations with all kinds of people. There were a lot of older women who had been fighting as feminists for decades. For me it was like another world, full of people you didn't know existed, who had been bothered by and engaged with these issues for such a long time. (And you ended up casually standing next to people like Julie Bindel / Maya Forstater / etc.)

I learnt a lot, and had my eyes opened to lots of different things including the fact that this large, concerned and engaged community existed, how fundamental the impact our patriarchal society has had/has on the lived experiences of women, and how skewed that is. The conference made me feel angry and despairing and hopeful all at the same time.

Right, who here remembers Comrade Delta, rapist at the Socialist Workers' Party? The one who was allowed to get away with it because the other party member didn't want to involve the police, because it would be a bit bourgeois? Naturally, if someone had murdered Comrade Delta, they'd have thought that was important enough to involve the state.

Tonight, an interesting motion has allegedly been passed by the Cardiff Students' Union. Nominally it's about showing support to black victims of police violence. But let's check some paragraphs that have sneaked in, down the bottom.

1. Cardiff SU will publicly condemn police violence by South Wales Police, especially their brutality towards Black people and people of colour.

2. Cardiff SU will audit where it engages with the police, and following this audit, cut down on engagement with the police to the minimum without violating legal requirements and interfering with strictly essential operations of the SU, such as the operation of its trading venues and important large-scale events. Cardiff SU will work towards non-engagement with the police in the future, and work towards a position where our operation and income are not reliant on engagement with South Wales Police or any other policing organisations.

3. Cardiff SU will actively promote alternatives to policing and transformative justice practices, steering away from promoting the police and the carceral justice system as the only channel that survivors could pursue, while raising awareness of the police’s complicity in violence and sexual violence. Cardiff SU will broaden its definition of safety in its campaigns to acknowledge how policing perpetuates violence, and that students can feel unsafe around the police.

<SNIP>

Remind you of anything? Can you see the agenda? Victims of violence and sexual violence are going to be guilt-tripped for wanting to report the people who attacked them. They are going to be "steered away" from involving the police. Heaven forfend that a student rapist might have his future jeopardised by his actions.

Just read the thread from Elly Arrow. Yeah, it's a great line of work, so many benefits to be had. Hellzapoppin, my views on prostitution have changed over the years, I never thought it was some great thing but I thought if legalised, etc it could be safe and okay. How foolish I was.