Women's rights general conversations

Some great stuff there, MrsOW. Maybe someone should ask Keir Starmer what he thinks about Queer Theory, and how it's applicable to schools.

Having said that, some of the No Outsiders programme is great - age appropriate and properly inclusive. Just like Stonewall used to produce outstanding materials for schools about homophobic bullying.
It's the pushing of queer theory, the relentless assault on girls (and boys) to abandon boundaries along with a tone deaf celebration of porn and kink that's the problem.

Queer theory is a large part of the answer regrettably. The "No Outsiders" debacle where mainly Muslim parents protected outside primary schools revealed a range of unexpected vested interests from adult lobby groups where queer theory and activism was imposed on unconsenting communities.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3567446-I-thought-I-couldnt-be-shocked-anymore-No-Outsiders-programme

When you look at the background to that programme, you get an insight into how an adult ideology, with harmful attitudes to girls and porn, has been allowed into schools under the banner of inclusion and diversity. It's driven a coach and horses through established safeguarding and has made teaching SRE in schools much more challenging as parents and community groups look at programmes with such suspicion, knowing what's been promoted by some.

I am just gob-smacked that anyone could have thought teaching that stuff to young kids is OK. Then again, it's not the first time I've been gob-smacked by stuff I've found here.

All I can remember from sex ed at school was the slide of a gonorrheic penis. In glorious close up and full colour.

Enough to put you off for life, or at least a few years. Up with this sort of thing!

@ErrolTheDragon me neither. I’ve heard some of the terms but would rather not know what they refer to.

Quite a few terms in the last few posts that I've no idea of the meaning of (and have no desire to google) ... sometimes ignorance really is bliss.

All I can remember from sex ed at school was the slide of a gonorrheic penis. In glorious close up and full colour. Watched a bit of 70s and 80s porn in my late teens/early 20s, very tame and formulaic as Crows describes, spanking of schoolgirls probably the most aberrant thing in there. Saw quite a bit of male gay porn in the 90s - as an HIV nurse - and found that much sexier. But it all got very boring very quickly, and I couldn’t bear the girl-on-girl stuff because of those long painted fingernails, the last thing I’d want near my most precious parts.

The middle ground is teaching ordinary vanilla sex, with the emphasis on consent, and understanding consent, especially aimed at the boys. Kink and everything else is for adults, and I see nothing wrong with telling kids that while they may see stuff online, this is not "normal" sexual activity for most people. Tell boys and girls it's OK to not want to do any of that stuff, in fact most girls don't want choking, bukake or anal, and it's wrong wrong wrong to try and persuade them they do. In fact, the more I think about it, there is no middle ground, there's right and wrong, and if that makes me a prude, I'll take it.

I'm not judging anyone who is into any of that but it should not be taught to young people as everyday activity.

Christ on a bike. The most we got in primary education was a tv wheeled in to watch a video showing an egg and some sperm and a brief appearance from a penis and a vulva, prompting much laughter and many red faces.

Not saying that’s right either but I’m sure there’s a middle ground somewhere.

It's just outright terrifying that stuff like this has made it to the being taught in schools level.

How, just how did any of it get through all the safeguarding, checks and balances, and however many supposedly intelligent people have read these things.

Sashohoho
Rosebudding was taught to children in Warwickshire schools via their online SRE programme. Posters on Mumsnet got involved with the Safe Schools Alliance campaign to "persuade" Warwickshire Council that teaching children below the age of consent shouldn't be taught about :
Felching
Sunflowering
Bukkake and other niche adult sexual behaviours.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3795892--All-about-me-Sex-Relationships-primary-education

I read that there is a thing among men who like rectal prolapse, and have a cute name for it. Ah, just googled it-rosebudding:

jezebel.com/heres-the-dangerous-and-grotesque-anal-sex-trend-you-ve-1593038946

Ha! Yes this too!

I am not sure whether it's willful blindness or what.

The problems and issues around porn are talked about out there in the world, on TV, among individuals. There are studies out there showing porn is harmful to both sexes.

Even if they can't be arsed to care about women, you'd think they'd care about themselves. We read it here on MN the real life problems it causes for the men themselves like ED, problems ejaculating, spirals of depression and retreat from real life and emotional connection to their partners and so on.

I've come to the conclusion that the all important right (Ha!) to ejaculate trumps all.

Thanks for the link to the podcast. I've downloaded it to listen to later. Also thanks for the link to the article about transphobic anthropologists and archaeologists. That was quite barking.

I don't watch porn anymore and find it problematic at the very least because it is exploitative. Of course, men who love it will tell you that women earn more than men, so it's like, wow, the women are in charge. Er, no they're not. Porn has also got more violent and extreme. What we watched back in the day was "Oh hello I've come to fix your boiler but let's have sex!" "Yes, please, I want all of the sex!" I'm not saying it wasn't flawed but it was "normal" apart from the fact that when someone's coming to fix an appliance you don't generally offer to have all of the sex with them. These days it's anal, double, anal, a cock in every hole and a cock in each hand, attempts at gang bang world records, chocking, spitting on women, hurting them while they "enjoy it", utter humiliation.

I remember watching a documentary years ago about a young woman who was from, I can't remember, I think Singapore, living in the states and she got into porn because she wanted to be "liberated". She ended up doing a how many men can she take on after the other. It was over a hundred and she was clearly in pain and sore beyond belief. She went to visit her parents and couldn't/wouldn't understand why they were so hurt. Throughout the show it was obvious that she was seriously damaged and it was utterly depressing.

Re porn. It's been having a negative impact on us for decades with, I think, the advent of video porn being the beginning of it becoming something that was overconsumed. I saw a lot of porn when I was younger and in the seventies European stuff there was always full muff, often gloriously hairy armpits. N.b. I wasn't watching porn in the seventies but in the earlyish eighties, a lot of video stuff was film to video stuff from the seventies. Then it became more and more stuff from the San Fernando Valley, the porn capital of the US and the world. Seventies stuff was still full muff but the muff began to get balder and very quickly it started to go baldy among American women then we imported the baldness because, apparently, it was more healthy. Yeah, right.

The loss of the glorious muff was down to it making it better for close-up shots in porn but I think that it also became something more than that. It was about looking "youthful", barely legal. It is bloody disturbing and not even a little bit healthier in fact I wouldn't be surprised if it puts the vagina at risk of infection because the pubic hairs on and around the vulva are protective.

Personally, I think there is something utterly beautiful about a luxuriant bush. I've never had a luxuriant one and have envied those who have. I've had to be shaved and shave myself totally bald twice. First when I was fourteen and a nurse did it in preparation for an appendectomy. Pretty sure they wouldn't do that these days, but it was odd and growing back was not nice. Second, I shaved it myself because a boyfriend had given me crabs and shaving it all off was the quickest way to free myself of them. Oh. My. God. The itching. The need to spend all day just scratching and not being able to spend all day scratching. Never again. Shave all the hair on my head off (I did a brave the shave and it was grand to find out my head wasn't oddly shaped) but leave my not particularly luxuriant muff alone!

I've heard a lot about how apparently some women enjoy being in porn. From men.

Yes. And also about how a woman directed it so therefore it’s fine I can’t be bothered figuring it out anymore either.

When I say show, I mean hold up as an example, not as in to watch. Urgh sorry.

Same here, I say it's a deal breaker they hide it.

I'm single and have been for a while now by choice. The properly good ones are really hard to find and I just can't be bothered figuring it out any more. Porn usage being pretty much the standard is one of the reasons.

I think they just don't see it as harmful or problematic, even the ones that are prepared to agree there are issues with porn usually fall back on the ethical porn argument or say that only some types of porn are harmful.

I've yet to meet one who has been eager to explain how they source their ethical porn or who has been able to show me an example of truly ethical porn.

I don't actually think that ethical porn is even possible.

I've heard a lot about how apparently some women enjoy being in porn. From men.

Found it, worse than I remembered. Never heard of BASHH and not heard a peep about this outside of the MN thread.

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/aug/11/rise-in-popularity-of-anal-sex-has-led-to-health-problems-for-women

How do you find a man who doesn’t watch it? Haven’t managed this so far. Most said they didn’t when they actually did.

Also against porn. It was never an issue in relationships. I recollect being in a chat at the old place many years ago, with a woman who roundly told me off and that there was no harm at all in it. Her father did, and fella. Then again, this woman was/is RSOH.

@DameMaud listening now, really interesting. Thank you

Really recommend this interview with Louise Perry where this is discussed (if not already listened)
podcasts.apple.com/mu/podcast/louise-perry-thinks-sexual-liberation-didnt-liberate/id603245791?i=1000585549689

@IcakethereforeIam I remember that thread, and I remember all the cool girls.