The vast majority of people can identify other people's sex; so why the pretence that men are women?

The actor I'm thinking of, Errol, tends to be very soft spoken and avoids big gestures. Seems to work hard not at being a 'diminished man' but at not being scary.
The way a very big, imposing man may have learned to avoid big fast gestures in case they are interpreted as being aggressive.

I appreciate their effort, but it must be hard work. There's absolutely no sniff of the 'India Willoughby pointing in your face' aggression at all.

Oh, d'oh, thank you

You have to email them - there's no such account as mnhq !

For a brief and unpleasant time, a TW attended my gym. They spent very very long periods of time in the women's changing rooms. So long that it was unavoidable once to have to go in there with them. It was just the two of us in there

I didn't change or shower but just used the loo. When I came out of the cubicle, they had moved from the main part of the changing room to stand by the washbasin in the small separate toilet section.

I don't know why they were there. They weren't using the toilet or washing their hands. There are mirrors in the main changing room. They just stood right next to me as I washed my hands.

It was massively, horrendously disturbing. I was shocked by how deeply I was frightened by it, how instinctive and unconscious that fear was.

I couldn't shake the sense that they knew perfectly well that they didn't pass and enjoyed the power trip.

Aww. Did you also think the Anchor butter cows were really dancing?

I'm rubbish at differentiating male faces but I can definitely tell male from female.

I think, aside from base instinct, women are also more likely to see the work of makeup etc because we have greater awareness of it. Think of how many men claim to love celebrities who "don't wear makeup" when they've clearly had hours of work done to perfect the natural makeup look.

Then you get men who see the accoutrements femininity such as flippy hair, boobs, lipstick and think woman almost as a default reaction. Remember the Big Brother series with that drag queen and India Willoughby? He'd been his normal male self and then dressed up as his drag character and a number of the straight male participants were a bit freaked out because they found "her" very attractive.

I don't agree about the 'small and non threatening' - how about that model chap threatening the women at the New York rally? How about IW?

@picklemewalnuts was referring to one individual. What struck me about that was more the huge sense of self diminishment about them - what? Do they think a woman is a diminished man? Do they feel they've abased themself?

Very perceptive post @Byfleet . I have a FB friend of many years who is a university lecturer - not in the UK. Anyway , she is a fine looking woman but has that bizarre collagen (?) pout.

I've often wondered how someone so intelligent can't see it looks obvious she has had 'work'. But your post goes some way to explaining it.

The Karolinska Institute in Sweden did some research about 20 years ago into how quickly we sex people. Women are quicker than men.

This is my experience too. My DP is useless at facial recognition. He's always getting actors mixed up.

Maybe women have evolved to be quick at sexing people for their own survival. Much like my hens are good at spotting cats from their body language.

I got deleted and I genuinely don't remember what I said. @mnhq, could you let me know please, so I can see what I said wrong? (by private message, obviously, if that's more appropriate. Thanks.

I am not so sure that many younger TW are interested in whether they pass or not. For them, being a woman is a performance, a pantomime. I don’t think they always care whether we notice they are not biological women.

I think the same has happened with facial surgery and enhancements generally. It used to be the case that people were really concerned for it to look natural, so you couldn’t tell if something had been done. Now it is increasingly obvious, and it’s clear people don’t care if they have an absurd trout pout, for example. It’s all about displaying yourself, regardless of what is ‘natural’.

I think if you are young it is easy to imagine that being an adult woman (or man) is just an act. It’s something you can become by putting on clothes. My toddler used to put on my shoes and pretend to be me and I think that part of her thought she had become an adult mum for that moment. You need a certain level of maturity and to have gone through certain experiences and physical phases to understand what it means to be male or female.

TW photis are filtered to fuck on social media and in professional photo shoots

you only have to see the filtered and unfiltered grace lavery or Emily bridges

they don’t pass but because women don’t go up to them saying “you’re a bloke aren’t you” they take that as evidence that they do and no one can tell

(you can’t identify out of the male privilege of not understanding why women dont routinely go around challenging men they don’t know)

I don't agree about the 'small and non threatening' - how about that model chap threatening the women at the New York rally? How about IW?

Re the young women who have taken testosterone - I am now seeing a disproportionate number of them working behind the counter of coffee shops. Is this because their gender obsession has ruined their employment chances? If so, it is very sad

That last point is interesting. There's a TW actor I've seen in a couple of programmes and also interviewed. They seem quite nice. There's a huge sense of self diminishment about them, a desire to show they are small and non threatening.

Another giveaway is that they genuinely don’t look comfortable and relaxed.

The older ones I’ve seen have had an aggressively defensive stance, and the teen ones I’ve seen always look like they actually want to crawl into a hole when they’re alone. When they’re surrounded by rainbow-haired mates it’s more of a show-pony vibe.

It all just seems very unnatural, to the point that the body language has been what’s attracted my attention before I’ve even clocked anything else.

It all just seems such bloody joyless hard work. Just put a bit of eyeliner on and enjoy life, Barry.

Boy babies smell different from girl babies (not 100% but broadly speaking) so no one is telling me older males don't smell different from older females. I could usually tell by head shape too.

The Karolinska Institute in Sweden did some research about 20 years ago into how quickly we sex people. Women are quicker than men.

They probably wouldn't do that research now in case it 'offended' certain people.

Hopefully the link will work - KJK from about 4 years ago.

At around 4 mins there is a man who thinks everyone sees him as a woman. He may well truly think he is indistinguishable from women. He isn't. He is clearly male, even in his woman disguise.

So regarding the not passing, I am still 'be kind' enough (or perhaps just naive) to think that while some (most?) of the men in women's spaces are there to assert dominance (EI in Sheffield using the women's toilets at a Labour event being a good example of this) there may be some who truly believe they are seen as one of the girls and therefore not causing anyone in women's spaces any discomfort whatsoever. They have to suspend their own reality to think this but expect everyone they interact with to suspend theirs too.

There is TW working at a local clothes shop, who was the available server when I last bought something there. Clearly a man, who happened to be wearing a dress, with a feminine name on his name badge. I paid my money, said thank you when he handed me my item and left the shop. He probably thinks he passes, partly because of the totally unremarkable interaction we had. He doesn't.

I would imagine that the filters and heavy online lifestyle is having an impact on these people's ability to perceive themselves properly.

I had an ED as a teenager which I believe was partially driven by issues with proprioception. Thankfully I recovered but the closest I came to a relapse was a few years back when my friend showed me those IG filters. It honestly made my brain feel the same way I did at 14 where what I saw in the mirror no longer was right.

So yes, it is absurd that people are supposed to play along with the idea we can't tell men from women. But I think that part of the problem is that some of the people have convinced themselves they pass. And no, it's not kind to go along with the delusion.

They've done studies where they asked men to wear t-shirts for a while then sent them to women. The women could tell which man they would find attractive from the smell alone. All to do with disease resistance apparently.

We are just slightly sophisticated monkeys. And sex is very important to monkeys.

Gender performance is all well and good. But sometimes sex is important, and when it is, it REALLY is.

Especially when it's a lady penis...

If we don’t play the game it makes certain penises flaccid and that’s, like, super sad.

They haven't won. There was a brief moment of confused silence when we all thought everyone else believed something impossible but that didn't hold for very long.