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Original poster

Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chamber) Thread 4

615 replies

nauticant · 07/11/2022 12:40

UPDATE: a transcript of the proceedings has been published and can be found here: lgballiance.org.uk/tribunal-transcript/

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony was heard from 12 to 15 September, and then, following a break, closing submissions are taking place on 7 and 8 November.

[This paragraph is probaby now redundant] To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

There is also live tweeting from www.twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

(Also the witnesses, PR: Paul Roberts, JN: John Nicolson. BB: Belinda Bell, BJ: Beverley Jackson, KH: Kate Harris, and EG: Eileen Gallagher.)

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632780-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chameber-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4633653-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chamber-thread-3?page=31&reply=121335177
Thread 4: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (13 September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (13-14 September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (14-15 September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (15 September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/John-Nicolson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Dr Belinda Bell: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Belinda-Bell-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Beverley Jackson: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Bev-Jackson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits-1.pdf
Kate Harris: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Kate-Harris-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Eileen Gallagher (two statements): www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Second-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf

Submissions:

www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

post updated by MNHQ at OP's request in order to include the most up to date information.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Original poster
nauticant · 08/11/2022 11:47

KM being very clear in using the EA 2010 to explain "man", "woman", "male", and "female".

OP posts:
WallaceinAnderland · 08/11/2022 11:43

LGBA beliefs or values are in conformity with a substantial number of other people. Probably most people.

They reflect legal norms as opposed to MM approach.

That does not mean others cannot have different views. A diversity of views must be accommodated in a liberal decmocracy.

FriendofJoanne · 08/11/2022 11:41

KM - Equality and Diversity are in the public benefit

PicturesOfDogs · 08/11/2022 11:38

Oh, I remember him now.
He was a definite ‘character’

WallaceinAnderland · 08/11/2022 11:37

He was awful and patronising. Calling LGBA witnesses 'coy' amongst other things.

Original poster
nauticant · 08/11/2022 11:35

If anyone wants to relive the John Nicolson experience, start here:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today?page=33

OP posts:
dworky · 08/11/2022 11:33

And was 'very late' yet stood outside taking photos which were posted on Twitter.

Birdsweepsin · 08/11/2022 11:32

Why am I not surprised that they are recommending discarding his evidence?

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 08/11/2022 11:31

God , I’d forgotten what an absolute loon Nicholson was. He was the politician who was far too busy and important for this but couldn’t give a straight answer to anything, making his display of awfulness drag oooon and oooon

Birdsweepsin · 08/11/2022 11:28

More:

In Nicolson’s witness statement, he referred to an ad campaign by LGB Alliance titled “Press Pause on the Gender Recognition Bill”, published by The Herald and Scotland on Sunday in January 2020.

The advert states that if Gender Recognition Act reform was to go ahead in Scotland, “there would be nothing to stop any man gaining legal recognition as a woman with a birth certificate to match and thereby accessing women’s hospital wards, refuges, prisons, toilets or changing rooms” and that the law could therefore be “exploited by predatory men who wish to hurt women and girls”.

Although Monaghan stated it was “unsurprising in a democracy that there will be differences in view on legislation” and described the ideas in the advert as “reasonable”, Nicolson insisted that the campaign was “designed to terrify” and “scaremonger”, implying that “plagues, hoards of predatory men will be bursting through the curtains of Marks and Spencer”.

“It attempts to link trans people with predators, it is the very definition of prejudice,” he added.

Birdsweepsin · 08/11/2022 11:27

PicturesOfDogs · 08/11/2022 11:25

I didn’t manage to catch all the original dates.

which one was Mr Nicholson?

Show quote history

Addressing LGB Alliance’s “concerns”, Nicolson pointed out that genital inspections are not required for one to identify as a lesbian, and added: “The majority of lesbians do not feel that they will become less lesbian if this legislation passes.”

He continued: “I just don’t share the LGB Alliance’s obsession with genitalia, they appear to think about nothing else from the moment they get up in the morning until they go to bed at night.

“I just don’t spend my days thinking about other people’s genitalia and I think it’s deeply unhealthy for them to do so.”

Write Up from Pink News, September 13th - I won't link

PicturesOfDogs · 08/11/2022 11:25

WallaceinAnderland · 08/11/2022 11:19

Mr Nicholson's evidence should be parked. His evidence was hostile.

I didn’t manage to catch all the original dates.

which one was Mr Nicholson?

picklemewalnuts · 08/11/2022 11:23

Scintillating reading, thanks guys!

Original poster
nauticant · 08/11/2022 11:20

Actually I think 15, "back at 25 to".

OP posts:
Original poster
nauticant · 08/11/2022 11:19

10 minute break.

OP posts:
Birdsweepsin · 08/11/2022 11:19

Break, back at 25 to

LipbalmOrKnickers · 08/11/2022 11:19

Excellent!

chilling19 · 08/11/2022 11:19

Ooh, calling out Nicholson's evidence as hostile

WallaceinAnderland · 08/11/2022 11:19

Mr Nicholson's evidence should be parked. His evidence was hostile.

Original poster
nauticant · 08/11/2022 11:19

KM: evidence of JN should be parked, he was vitriolic, showed hostility towards LGBA.

OP posts:
Original poster
nauticant · 08/11/2022 11:17

In other words, LGBA is not aligned with any political party.

OP posts:
Original poster
nauticant · 08/11/2022 11:16

KM: EG gave evidence that LGBA seeks to engage on a cross-party basis.

OP posts:
Mmmnotsure · 08/11/2022 11:14

KM Mermaids charitable aims are not being looked at here
But
Note that Mermaids are involved in political campaigning. They lobby for legislative change.

Birdsweepsin · 08/11/2022 11:14

According to Dr Belinda Bell's evidence Political campaign work is something that Mermaids do - and want to do more of.

If this tribunal were to take the view that Mermaids political activity is oK, but LGBA's isn't, this Tribunal would be taking a side.

chilling19 · 08/11/2022 11:13

Nice point

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