Has Keir reached the summit?

Starmer has actually stated clearly and unambiguously that Labour policy will be self-id. I suppose his advisers thought a few extremely vague statements would be enough to get some gullible people interpreting him as being pro women when he hasn't said anything of the sort, quite the opposite. It boils down to do you want Labour to win because of all the comforting (and entirely false) fairy tales you tell yourself that it's a nice party that will look after the Poor™️(spoiler: Reeves has already said several times they won't) or do you want women to exist and have legal rights?

(Disclaimer in case I seem like a bot or something - I certainly won't be voting Tory either, I'll be spoiling my ballot again)

There’s an ancient Indian proverb, the moral of which roughly translates as “There is no point arguing with mad people.” I think of it often.

The replies are fascinating. Apparently “biological women” is a red flag: an offensive term. Yet “cis women” is not. Only men are allowed to decide how women may describe ourselves, it seems. This from
people who insist that using their birth name after they’ve chosen another is “literal violence.” 🤔

I think Starmer is going to struggle with the “trying to please everyone = please no one” thing. He thinks he’s being clever saying to us that he’ll protect women’s safe spaces, while also saying to the trans community that transwomen are women. But if he lets anyone identify into women’s safe spaces then they aren’t safe anymore, eh.

What Starmer - and many other politicians desperately need to do is (1) work out what he really believes about this topic, (2) communicate that clearly to the electorate and (3) engage with the electorate to persuade people that he’s right.

For example, I believe that healthy children should not be given life changing drugs and surgery, that women should be able to access intimate medical care, toilets, changing rooms and rape centres without being forced to accept men there, that men should not be allowed to compete in women’s sports categories, and that anal ‘sex’ and bdsm should not be promoted to schoolchildren as healthy choices. I believe that men, particularly sex offenders, should not be housed in women’s prisons. I believe that no one should be forced by their employer to state a political/ideological position with which they disagree (eg by requiring pronoun email signatures) and I believe that death threats and rape threats are not an acceptable response to political debate. I believe that the police should be neutral on politics and not arrest and interrogate gender-critical women on suspicion of tweeting, while failing to arrest or interview rapists. Others may disagree.

Yes, Keir understands us very well. He is just too fearty to actually say it, or do anything to help Rosie - or women in general, for that matter.

No faith in the man at all.

I respect how you feel mangy, but do you really think he's coming to some kind of realisation on this? I think I would be MORE worried if I felt that, as it would presume that he, and the LP, are utterly out of touch.

It's much better than what has come before. I think he is seeing some of the real issues, and maybe more realized this isn't something that will die down.

But the comment about respecting transwomen identities - he needs to spell out what that actually means - what does he mean by "modernizing"?

And I think the part about the LP having had that conversation is almost more serious. Clearly they have not, and clearly their party processes are fucked, in a very dangerous way that goes well beyond gender ideology. I don't think he has a sweet clue about that.

Well, all these supposed gc (I refuse to use terf) labour mp's are fuck-all use now. I can't see any of them gaining a spine any time soon. So all the above is academic.

There is a massive internal battle going on in Labour right now. The TRAs are doubling down on their demands Rosie must go. They have many Labour students groups on board. However it is already clear they are NOT going to get anywhere. No-one important agrees with them:
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4664759-young-labour-etc-demand-rosie-duffield-lose-whip

Billy Bragg and Owen Jones cannot win you a war inside Labour.

Kier is playing off both sides. He will never say it but he backs Rosie's free speech. Because he has to. She is just the most outspoken person for a sizeable faction in Labour. Remember the Women's section of Labour MPs elected Rosie their leader in 2020 after she openly went Terf - that sent a signal. Although most Labour MPs will not admit it openly they are fine with TERFs being in party, secretly they think a lot of what they are saying makes sense. No Labour MP has criticised Rosie for saying Eddie Izzard is a biological man, that is because most think it is harmless, not horrific evil. TRAs in the party do not like this... at all.

This is why the gender wars are going to intensify. Election is getting closer - Starmer wants to win at all costs. He is going to try to keep neutral, but it is going to get messy.

GCs in Labour have a secret weapon in that they are not fanatical bigots. There are a bunch of TRA leaning MPs we are fine with them being in the party as long as we can have open debate. Young TRA activists would prefer Labour to lose than elect Terfs especially Rosie. The Labour hierarchy will not tolerate that stuff forever in the run up to an election. Especially as most TRAs are ultra progressive types - who don't like other aspects of Starmer's agenda.

The fact is if they stay in the party they are going to be helping get Terfs elected. For every one open Terf in Labour I think there are 5 or more secret terfy types. Some might criticise them for not being open, but that underestimates how vital they are. They are unobtrusive, witchy, secret agents, but that is what we need. Labour internal wars are not won purely by open debate. They are won by secret back room deals and sudden assault. Sexism isn't ingrained inside Labour because we have an open sexist culture, it is a secret agenda. To fight it we need to use guile and stealth as well. We have a secret terf army in Labour behind enemy lines. Labour Women's Declaration are on the front line and doing vital work. Meanwhile the secret terfs are at work on committees, being branch secretaries, women's officers etc. Waiting for their time... which will come. All they need to do is ask a few questions at the right moment, raise doubts, stress need for party unity, push candidates who are open minded, push funds in the right direction. Then at the right moment if needed they can strike.

There are going to be huge battles over policy in next few years inside Labour over reforming GRA, violence against women, etc and the manifesto. It seems Labour will have power in Westminster within 2 years. The balance is shifting towards women and gay rights slowly, but we need reinforcements. If you are hardy and can handle high level open combat join the front lines with Rosie and others. If you prefer then join the witchy secret army. Gain power in your local branch, use it push a terfy agenda, but subtly.

There is a reason people are scared of witches. TRAs need to start remembering why. They can be literally anywhere. Any women, even some men! The more you try to hunt them out the more their numbers grow.

Sorry to duplicate, but I just have to say WHAT DISCUSSION? When, where, who?
It might have happened in his head, but not outside of it.

I honestly don't think you can "both sides" this issue. It's like trying to compromise on whether the earth is flat. Well no, it's not. It's not a bot flat and a bit spherical. There is no way to compromise.

The difference here is that this issue matters. At its heart it's about safeguarding and that Kier, is not something on which we can compromise.

This is the same Starmer who only a short time ago was opining at Penis News awards about the great new world of Self Id which would be priority item in the new Labour Government.

Both sets of comments cannot be true.

I agree too. "The Labour Party has had that discussion" is baffling. When did it have that discussion? Who was involved? What issues were discussed? What were the conclusions? How were they communicated? No sign of any of that. I'm sure I saw that at the last conference Labour Women's Declaration weren't even allowed to have a stall. Starmer is either totally unaware of what's going on in the party he leads and hasn't bothered to find out, or he's delusional, or he's lying. This mealy-mouthed attempt at trying to placate everyone without actually doing anything is a big fat fail.

Oh, this is interesting. There is no balance, there can be no compromise- not if your goal is safeguarding.

he is going to be attacked now and get the wrath of TRAs. And he knows it.

he is not a stupid man. He is a weak leader because of the fence sitting but he is not stupid. He plays a long game of being too dull to get worked up about.

that won’t save him here. They will eviscerate him with their lady nails.

Of course there was no balance on that Twitter thread @JustStopOilyPoshKids : the trans flag was all over it.

When did Labour have that discussion? I maybe blinked and missed it. Or, if this MN 'chat' was it, Keir Starmer is one deluded man.

Do better, Keir.

I see this as Stammer trying to do some damage control with regards to the shear number of women that labour has lost, the ongoing scandal that is gender affirming "care" for children (Tavistock, Sandyford, mermaids and the cass review), with a dash of oh fuck look what the republicans are doing to the Democrats over this and someone's told him that the Tories are setting themselves up to do the same to labour.
Call me cynical but I just don't believe that he means anything that he said however he's about to get a straight white man's taste of what Rosie Duffield has been enduring from the TRAs for wrong speak which should give him pause for thought

Deploring, not deploying. Thanks autocarrot for making me incoherent as usual!

"There's a balance to be struck"

Fuck off. Men aren't women Keir. Every 'balance' seems to be women losing their right to anything separate to men.

Balance would be 3rd spaces, sex segregated where necessary and no forced participation in someone else's religion or requirement to validate anyone's self image.

The fact that he was here at all, and discussed the subject at all, speaks volumes. Like asking Sunak questions about immigration. He's demonstrating that there aren't no-go areas in policy for him. He did say some specifics, such as leaving sport to the governing bodies. I think he's attempting to reduce the pressure to act in any direction and given the very different landscape we are looking at compared to 2018, I'm pretty happy with that.

I'm sure they will. I have a trans relative on fb who is often deploying the rampant transphobia of the Labour Party, the Guardian etc.

Starmer comes out of that pretty well IMO. Yes it's politicians' answers to try to keep both sides on board (and as someone desperate to see a Labour government soon, I'm content with that), but I think it also points to a policy position where trans rights are respected and adult/social transition (GRC process) is made easier, but where there are clear limits on what that means (in line with EA2010) and where the work of GIDS and friends is subject to scrutiny.

I think that actually matches the feminist TERF position for many of us. And the experience of backlash (as in that thread) for saying something so moderate and so obviously supportive of trans rights, is always an eye-opening experience in itself.

On a related note I spotted a certain feminist Labour MP, who has always avoided coming out as a TERF, congratulating Hadley Freeman on her move to the Guardian this week... that gave me some hope too.

Suedocrem good point, re jam.

I think it’s more jam tomorrow, jam yesterday, but never jam today.

it should be discussed, it’s been discussed. But it’s never currently being discussed.

It’ll be interesting to see if TRAs turn on him for this and if they do whether that opens his eyes (or perhaps rather makes him confront what his eyes have already seen) to what happens if you dare dissent at all.

We all no there is no compromise. It’s total capitulation or be treated as a heretic.

I got as far as"anti trans message board Mumsnet" and thought I'm probably not going to get much balanced insight from this tweet thread.

Agree with pp he’s just trying to please both sides but on this issue you can’t

I'm blocked, has anyone got a screenshot? Thanks.