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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mail: Parents of three-year-olds 'took their children to NHS Tavistock clinic claiming they were trans when they just wanted a child of a different sex', psychiatrist says

60 replies

ResisterRex · 22/10/2022 07:41

Article in the Mail on views and experiences of GIDS from a former psychiatrist who worked there until 2012. Referrals only increased after that time, as is documented.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11342541/Dr-Az-Hakeem-says-parents-claimed-kids-trans-NHS-Tavistock-transing-factory-clinic.html

"Parents of children as young as three were fabricating stories that their toddlers were transgender, a former psychiatrist at the Tavistock child gender clinic claims.

Dr Az Hakeem worked at the controversial NHS clinic for 12 years until 2012 and said he expressed concerns the procedures followed by staff 'were mad', describing Tavistock as a 'transing factory'."

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DaughterofDawn · 24/10/2022 00:47

So selfish to try to force your kids to fit into your ideal of what they should be. Just let them be themselves. But to take it another step and start destroying their bodies to reach your end goal… That is really sad…

Clymene · 22/10/2022 19:29

Sorry for telling you about the thread and not posting the link! Was on my way out the door.

It has got a lot of replies. Inc a couple from a poster whose child's school was really pushing her to socially transition them. Horrifying.

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2022 19:09

'gender disappointment' is a complicated and very human emotion. Strong feelings and thoughts about having children are inevitable, and lots of things may stir up emotions unexpectedly as parents. There's never anything wrong with feelings or emotions; only with actions.

umbel · 22/10/2022 18:24

If these kids are being seen aged 4 or 5, how old were they when they were referred? The Mail article reads like they were actually seen in clinic, and we are forever being told the waiting list is 2 years or thereabouts? Are these the babies who expressed their transgender identity by unsnapping their onesies, or pulling out their hair clips? Or maybe they knew they were trans in the womb, because isn’t that a thing now? www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11280475/amp/Harvard-hospital-claims-babies-know-WOMB-transgender.html

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 22/10/2022 17:32

terryleather · 22/10/2022 17:11

This. It's fucking terrifying.

If you look at the about us section of the new NHS gender clinic in Manchester, you might come up with a hypothesis.

The service is the culmination of several years of work to develop an improved model of care, which is local, timely, and easier to access.

(Continues)

We know that trans and non-binary people are the experts of their own experience, and that is why this service has been developed by and for trans communities. Our services are trans and non-binary led, with trans and non-binary people guiding and feeding into them at all levels.
(Continues)
A team of care navigators with lived experience works with people who access our services to help them to get the most out of the service and enable them to connect with local organisations

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail...

terryleather · 22/10/2022 17:11

Melroses · 22/10/2022 11:29

Who is referring these preschool children - who’ve fairly recently discovered that they’re separate people from their mothers and are still grappling with theory of mind - to a gender identity clinic? There’s no possibility of them having an identity that is some essential part of them (rather than imposed from outside).

How did we end up with a clinic of paediatric psychologists and psychiatrists who had forgotten this?

This. It's fucking terrifying.

DameMaud · 22/10/2022 17:04

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 22/10/2022 16:54

Ah! Thanks to you both then 🤗

ResisterRex · 22/10/2022 16:56

Ha! Sorry was doing chores! Glad you got there Smile

OP posts:
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 22/10/2022 16:54

DameMaud · 22/10/2022 16:41

@ResisterRex would you mind share the thread link please? Or the title? 🙏

I'm not Rex, but I got here first, so there. www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4660470-to-think-that-transing-young-children-is-a-medical-scandal?page=10

DameMaud · 22/10/2022 16:41

ResisterRex · 22/10/2022 15:48

Oh wow. Just found it. It's got a lot of traffic!

@ResisterRex would you mind share the thread link please? Or the title? 🙏

TheBiologyStupid · 22/10/2022 15:56

Transgender Trend has an interview with Dr Hakeem who was quoted in The Daily Mail's article: www.transgendertrend.com/interview-az-hakeem/

ResisterRex · 22/10/2022 15:48

Clymene · 22/10/2022 13:26

There is another thread on this in AIBU. Worth a read.

Oh wow. Just found it. It's got a lot of traffic!

OP posts:
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 22/10/2022 15:40

I suppose it depends how long this
has been going on for. I would have assumed the timeframe was too early, but I may not have accurate information.

The good doctor is in their late 30s. Older than me, and they may even be older than the official voices of da yoof, Owen Jones and Jameela Jamil! Were female children being put on blockers for gender-related distress at that point?

VestofAbsurdity · 22/10/2022 15:39

There's no two ways about it this shit show has to result in criminal culpability and punishment for all those involved, it is the only way to prevent it happening again.

Datun · 22/10/2022 15:08

TheBiologyStupid · 22/10/2022 14:47

Absolutely - very alarming.

Is this a person who has themselves had their puberty blocked? Because they sound like a child.

And that's another thing. Individuals who have never been through puberty, but have aged chronologically and qualified in certain subjects.

Are we looking at a bunch of people who are qualified, but with the brain and maturity of a 12 year old. Or even younger.

Fucking hell. The equivalent of a nine-year-old psychologist.

Datun · 22/10/2022 15:05

TheClogLady · 22/10/2022 13:05

Clarification, the mother wants puberty blockers prescribed despite the child showing no signs of bodily distress.

I remember seeing some messages maybe from Reddit or possibly Facebook, where a woman's son actively didn't want to take cross sex hormones anymore.

He was finding it interfered with his wanking, apparently. His erections were, er, unreliable. And she was fuming with him, trying to push them on him.

This whole ideology is such a massive shit show.

TheBiologyStupid · 22/10/2022 14:47

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/10/2022 12:53

That's grim PurgatoryOfPotholes. It's like reading a personal statement from a 14 year old, not a qualified psychologist working with children with complex mental health issues.

Absolutely - very alarming.

suninthefog · 22/10/2022 13:49

Thanks @TheClogLady for acknowledging my feelings. I'm sorry you had to grow up that way. That's truly a horrible thing to put on a child.

Now he's here I feel no disappointment in having a son, except the ocasional pang when I read the MIL and DIL threads.

Clymene · 22/10/2022 13:41

Christ @PurgatoryOfPotholes thar person belongs nowhere near gender questioning children. I know someone who is a massive TRA who is a school teacher. I really don't think she should be because I know for a fact she doesn't keep her ideology out of the classroom.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 22/10/2022 13:33

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/10/2022 12:53

That's grim PurgatoryOfPotholes. It's like reading a personal statement from a 14 year old, not a qualified psychologist working with children with complex mental health issues.

When you've recovered from that, here are their musings about men's and women's spaces, from the festival blog. This was posted under their real name, complete with the title of Dr.

Do they come across as someone who is capable of saying to a distressed teenage female, "I don't think medical transition is the right path for you"? Do they seem capable of separating their own situation from the individual circumstances of children referred to them?

blog

LGBTQ people are born rebels, explorers and pioneers. Coming Out is an act of self-affirmation in defiance of HUGE homophobia in the world, and five decades of law reform and changing attitudes in some places has not changed that. Coming Out is an act of rebellion against the norms of the world that shows the authentic drive within to be Who We Are is stronger than the idiocy and prejudice that exists around homo, bi and trans-sexuality.

For a number of years I have been vocal about my feelings against gender specific spaces. Not spaces such as women only refuges, but single sex workshops or held spaces that are specifically designed to explore, develop or discover one’s masculinity or femininity in an exclusive and essentialist manner. However, more recently I have come to think that it is not so much the spaces specifically that I am against, but the way in which these spaces are set up.
I have attended a variety of sexuality/Tantra festivals over the years, which more often than not have some kind of ‘men only’ and ‘women only’ sessions throughout the programme. I never wished to attend the women’s only sessions, yet I felt ambivalent around my presence in the men only spaces. Even in the more heteronormative workshops there tended to be some controversy and much discussion about these spaces; particularly how men and women were defined. Were the spaces
about exploring sex, bodies, gender, identity, stereotypes, expression or something else? If the purpose was to explore identity, and not sex, then could a woman who wished to explore her masculinity attend the man’s space? The answer was always no. These were spaces created by excluding others, by those in power deciding if a person was allowed to attend, telling people they were not welcome based on criteria that has been set by a culture of oppression.

As the women connected with mother earth and the men growled and stamped around the room, those of us ‘gender rejects’ sat in the smoking cabin and criticised the way the spaces had been set up. At the same time part of me wanted to be ‘one of the boys’ and be allowed into the club of masculinity. I wanted that part of me to be validated by the process of simply being allowed into the room. Yet at the same time I did not want to be part of a club that excluded people like me.
As testosterone has now taken hold of my body my membership of this club is often assumed. I am positioned as a man by most new people I meet and thus given membership through their perception. I therefore no longer have to ask ‘are trans guys allowed in this space?’ but simply turn up. Yet I still feel ambivalent about my presence in men only spaces and the aspects of my old self, and my politics, that I may be betraying if I enter.

During the summer I attended the Queer Spirit festival, a festival for queer people to celebrate sexuality, spiritually, ritual and communities. When reading the program, I noticed that there was a session for ‘masculine identified people’. This was in stark contrast to the spaces I had come into contact with before. An ‘opt in’ space, where the individual can decide for themselves whether they wish to be part of such a space rather than the larger group excluding those who they feel do not meet some culturally oppressive criteria.

I felt myself being drawn to the session, despite the blurb about it being rather vague and I couldn’t really tell what it was about. My next question to myself was as to whether I was really ‘man enough’ to attend. I do not think of myself as a man, though I often enjoy being called a boy. I strongly connect with the term genderqueer and on occasions I will refer to myself as trans masculine, thus I decided that I was indeed ‘man enough’, or possibly ‘masculine enough’ to attend.
I entered the session and quietly sat down. Just before the session began two younger faces peeked around the door, “Can we come in?” one asked in a soft unbroken voice.
A variety of versions of “If you identify as a man you are welcome here” answered back. “We are both trans guys” the unbroken voice replied. “Then yes, come on in”. The two young men entered the space and joined the circle.
It turned out that the session involved a variety of exercises looking at touch and consent, some similar to ones that I had done before. [bold mine]

Out of a total of 18 participants, four of us were trans which seemed to make no difference to any of the cis men there. The workshop ended with a discussion about how the group had found the session. As the young man with the unbroken voice said how important it had been for him to be welcomed into such a space I felt tears well up in my eyes. Now several years into my physical transition I can look back and remember how important it was for me to find role models, both cis and trans men, who connected with a kind of masculinity that I found myself drawn to, yet opportunities of this kind had felt few and far between. In hearing how important the spacehad been for that young man I felt proud that I had been there with him. I felt grateful to the other men who had also been there, who had made the session a welcoming space for all of us to be in together.

As I reflect on my position about gender specific spaces I believe that it has changed over time. It is not so much the existence of them that I stand against, but rather how they are set up and who gets to dictate group membership. Who gets to decide who belongs and who doesn’t? Who performs their gender ‘well enough’ to be granted permission to enter? Who defines how these ideas of gender are constructed? It is the power in this exclusivity that I stand against; a power that exists in day to day culture which is harmful and oppressive to all of us, irrespective of our gender. Instead, I stand for spaces that are ‘opt in’, where power is placed in the individual and one gets to decide for themselves whether they belong, or even if they wish to belong at all. Spaces that are set up to be welcoming and supportive, inclusive and based on self-defined and self-constructed identities. Spaces that have the power to be healing, affirming and nurturing. Those are spaces of which I am proud to belong.

TheClogLady · 22/10/2022 13:28

suninthefog · 22/10/2022 13:15

That's not totally fair. I had gender disappointment when I was told I was having a son. I've had very negative experiences with men and male siblings.

It was hard to for me at that point, 12 weeks pregnant separate these complex feelings. Sometimes we as women are told that the only child worth having is a daughter as a son will leave you. I saw that happen over and over in my family over the years. I had internalised this sentiment completely. Having other mothers tell me this isn't ok would have only made me feel worse than I already felt.

I love my son. He'll be my only. He's amazing but I had to grieve for all my expectations of motherhood and how I saw my future family once I found I was having a son.

I think you are both right.

The mother’s feelings are her feelings and they are sincere and deserved to be acknowledged (and may well be rooted in the mother’s own trauma) but no matter how sincere, those feelings can’t be allowed to affect her child’s psychological well-being.

(It doesn’t sound like that’s the case for you, btw, Sun. Personally, I grew up knowing my dad wanted a boy and that I was a disappointment. I even have a feminised version of the boy-name he picked for his non-existent son. It’s definitely been a contributory factor to our difficult father/daughter relationship as he barely concealed his resentment towards me and my elder sister was the golden child)

Clymene · 22/10/2022 13:26

There is another thread on this in AIBU. Worth a read.

suninthefog · 22/10/2022 13:26

Also not that I have to defend myself to you @lunar1 but the reason I even knew that early is due to genetic screening. For a genetic abnormality that only shows in boys, as it's on the X chromosome, but girls with their two XX don't suffer in the same way as one will always be normal. People have all sorts of reasons for feelings.

However I've never once wished my son was a daughter. So that's on my side in comparison to these mothers who are transing their sons.

suninthefog · 22/10/2022 13:15

lunar1 · 22/10/2022 12:11

How many threads a week do we get with posters devastated and the awful news that they are having a boy, and how many people jump on to validate the feeling.

When you are a parent your child's needs come first, someone with a significant desire for one sex over the other is having a child for themselves and not for the person they are bringing into the world. We shouldn't be encouraging that this is ok.

That's not totally fair. I had gender disappointment when I was told I was having a son. I've had very negative experiences with men and male siblings.

It was hard to for me at that point, 12 weeks pregnant separate these complex feelings. Sometimes we as women are told that the only child worth having is a daughter as a son will leave you. I saw that happen over and over in my family over the years. I had internalised this sentiment completely. Having other mothers tell me this isn't ok would have only made me feel worse than I already felt.

I love my son. He'll be my only. He's amazing but I had to grieve for all my expectations of motherhood and how I saw my future family once I found I was having a son.

TheClogLady · 22/10/2022 13:05

Clarification, the mother wants puberty blockers prescribed despite the child showing no signs of bodily distress.