Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

''I find this group of people attractive therefore they must find me attractive' is NOT HOW SEXUALITY WORKS

If someone is only attracted to a female then they are only attracted to females - why on EARTH would anyone take it personally? It's a big old world, go and find someone who is ENTHUSIASTIC about being attracted to you!

Frankly, if you find you have to persuade/berate/explain/convince someone that they ought to be attracted to you, or feel that you need to shame someone for their sexual orientation you are the one who is highly, highly problematic.

I remember on a twitter thread a while back saying how attracted I am to men's wrists - the particular arrangement of the bones, the contrast of small bones and bigger hands. They seemed to think it was a ridiculous idea that wrists could look or feel different between the sexes. But of course they do.

(I want my partner to have a penis - a proper one, that has spontaneous erections and has feeling in it, have always been very swayed by hormones/smell when dating blokes, very clear part of attraction for me). Obviously according to this I must be a massive transphobe.

One of the highlights(?) of Null's recent 4-hour stream about his server troubles, linked over on that thread, was a message passed on by Null from someone who had experienced this first-hand. I don't think I can post the whole thing here, but here's part of it.

I fell for the whole "transwomen are women" line and have actually had sex with a transwoman [...] It is NOTHING like a vagina [...] about as exciting as fingering a very deep belly button.

Oh, and the male body that goes with it still feels male. You never really realize the texture of a woman's skin and the shape of her skeletal frame is so important to the sexual experience, but it really is. There are a thousand different physical cues and sensations that say male, male, male... even with your eyes closed, or maybe ESPECIALLY with your eyes closed.

(Timestamp 1:23:25 for the full gory details).

I mean you can somewhat imagine why someone might prefer, in extremis, to be a simulacrum of the opposite sex, but that's always going to be of limited appeal, because it's only ever going to be a simulacrum, and people are interested in the entire package. You will just end up being neither one thing nor the other.

The fundamental reality is that we don't have the ability to perform sex changes on people, even at an external appearance level. Maybe it could improve, but it's very, very crude at the moment.

Sexual orientation harms no one and is nobody else's business. I'd be surprised if it was created by socialisation, otherwise there'd be strict social or biologically driven rules about how we socialise children so as not to suddenly extinguish the species.
I'm curious why it's suddenly under scrutiny in this way; and not other behaviours which could actually be accounted for by socialisation, and are harmful to others.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

www.them.us/story/cis-trans-dating/amp

Thanks for the link. I found it pretty creepy tbh. Because the conclusion was that really it must be a phobia and social conditioning responsible for unwillingness to date a trans person. Why can't people simply have sexual preferences?

Why do we need to coerce people into having sex with trans people by pretending they will otherwise be some kind of genital or reproductive obsessed deviant?

This reads as someone who really hasn't thought things through. If people are transitioning for the utopia of being absolutely indistinguishable from their desired sex for all people and all reasons, they will be sorely disappointed. It's actually a real problem to raise people's expectations of this and then tell them that they can't have them because transphobia is all around them.

I cannot see a scenario in which I would as a straight woman be attracted to a TW (unattractive for a partner to want to be the same sex to me, I would want a partner to be happy with being a man and certainly wouldn't be attracted post-op and that might always be a possibility) or a TM (I want my partner to have a penis - a proper one, that has spontaneous erections and has feeling in it, have always been very swayed by hormones/smell when dating blokes, very clear part of attraction for me). Obviously according to this I must be a massive transphobe.

The podcast harsh reality revisits the early 2000s dating show when a group of men believe they are competing for the heart of a woman who was is finally revealed to be a trans woman.

"There's something about Miriam" I think was the show?

https://www.realitytvworld.com/news/fox-reality-debut-uk-there-something-about-miriam-october-31-5566.php

However the six suitors got over their claims of injury and public humiliation in return for an undisclosed cash settlementnt^ which various reports pegged at anywhere between $150,000 and $250,000 a person clearing the way for the program to debut on Sky One in late February 2004. As part of the settlement, Brighter Pictures the Endemol production company subsidiary that had produced There's Something About Miriamriam-- also issued a public statement apologizing for "any upset" caused by the program.^

Goodness, you'd have thought they would have been fine with it, no one would care what sex Miriam was surely?

If you want lesbian to now mean anyone who identifies as one.

What word should those women who are exclusively attracted to the same sex use to describe themselves and that specific group?

Do they no longer require, or have a right to, a word which describes exclusively female only attracted?

It’s important to remember there will have been many more lesbians at Pride who did not agree with the actions of the protesters (at least, if it was anything like london pride, which I attended).

It’s OK to disagree. Gays and lesbians are not all part of the Borg …

97 and counting down...

If you do work in the gov depth God help us. Your grasp on reality seems tenuous. You preach and insult every post but accuse others of preaching to you, all because you don't understand words that describe sexuality. Or the EA 2010 wording. You think it is legal to pretend to be a woman even though this has been tested in court. You say the comparator for a tw is a woman (or non tw, wtf how offensive can you get!) But legally the comparator for a tw is a man. You think the general public agree with you!! OK then.

The podcast harsh reality revisits the early 2000s dating show when a group of men believe they are competing for the heart of a woman who was is finally revealed to be a trans woman.
the men were furious because they felt they'd been misled, humiliated, manipulated and conned. They did not redefine themselves as gay.
I don't get why trans can't be a category, given that binary is meant to be so restrictive?

*quiet not quite

aseriesofstillimages

It’s important to remember there will have been many more lesbians at Pride who did not agree with the actions of the protesters (at least, if it was anything like london pride, which I attended).

So you don't know how "many more lesbians" were at the Welsh pride march and unless you asked them all (you didn't because you weren't there) how can you possibly know how many agreed with whichever group.

Remember that being quite does not equal agreement, especially when the opposing voices are louder and more aggressive.

Surprisingly, among the 127 participants open to dating a trans person, almost half selected a trans person of a gender incongruent with their stated sexual orientation

The only suprise there is that half (said they) would select a trans person of a sex incongruent with their stated sexual orientation.

Males in male changing rooms: I agree that of course a male could be a risk to other males, however, a major deterrent is the presence of men! Imagine what would happen if a father noticed a man starring inappropriately at his son? Do gay men walk around male changing rooms with a visible erection? Of course not! It's the physical and social power imbalance which is a problem when male bodied people enter a female space.

Your second question makes it sound like every family includes at least one adult male, but I’m assuming what you mean is, it is ok for a trans woman to breast feed a baby? I’m not sure whether it’s actually true that the substance produced by trans women’s breasts is of ‘unknown composition’. My view is that provided the ‘milk’ is considered safe by those qualified to make that judgement, and the baby is getting the nutrients it needs overall, then is it’s personal choice for the parents.

No, my question was directly relevant to only families who have a male who wishes to feed an infant from their breast.

You seem to be rather keen to try to point at something that is not relevant to my question - that is building a straw man. You can do that, but we will keep pointing out it is irrelevant to the question which has no relevance to another family situation.

I’m not sure whether it’s actually true that the substance produced by trans women’s breasts is of ‘unknown composition’.

And it has been explained before. Yes, it is ‘unknown’! It may contain a whole group of other chemicals from a male body either naturally produced or artificially introduced (some to even produce that substance in the first place).

And no male has any ability for that substance to be changed by their body to suit the infant. This has been explained. This is why if an infant is being ‘joint fed’ by breast, it will be receiving a less nutritious meal. Because with breastfeeding every ml counts.

Hence why feeding the infant from the breast should never be centred around an adult male wishes.

As far as I can tell though tbf I'm not in the thick of things so I may be wrong, lots of lesbians and gays for that matter, talk the talk but don't walk the walk, meaning they'll spout support but won't date trans.

Evidence suggests you are correct.

https://www.them.us/story/cis-trans-dating/amp

Virtually all heterosexuals excluded trans folks from their dating pool: only 1.8% of straight women and 3.3% of straight men chose a trans person of either binary gender. But most non-heterosexuals weren’t down for dating a trans person either, with only 11.5% of gay men and 29% of lesbians being trans-inclusive in their dating preferences. Bisexual/queer/nonbinary participants (these were all combined into one group) were most open to having a trans partner, but even among them, almost half (48%) did not select either ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman.’

And amazingly (my bold)

Surprisingly, among the 127 participants open to dating a trans person, almost half selected a trans person of a gender incongruent with their stated sexual orientation. For example, 50% of the trans-inclusive straight women and 28% of the trans-inclusive gay men were willing to date a trans woman, even though one wouldn’t expect either straight women or gay men to be attracted to women. Similarly, 50% of trans-inclusive straight men and 69% of trans-inclusive lesbians said they’d date a trans man, even though both groups are presumably only attracted to women. And 33% of the trans-inclusive bisexual/queer participants said they would only date a trans person of one gender but not the other, even though one may expect this group to be attracted to multiple genders.

Digging even deeper into the choices of cis folks willing to date trans people, an interesting pattern of discrimination against trans women in particular emerged among those who would be expected to be attracted to women: 28% of trans-inclusive bisexual/queer/nonbinary folks and 38% of trans-inclusive lesbians said they wouldn’t date a trans woman — only a trans man. There was no similar discrimination against trans men among those expected to be attracted to men: 0% of trans-inclusive gay men and only 5% of trans-inclusive bisexual/queer/nonbinary folks excluded trans men from their dating pool.

On the first point I have a question for you - is it ok for men to be in changing rooms with male children who are not part of their family?

Yes. What a ridiculous question.

Do you have children? It is quite standard practice to have people of the same sex in the same changing room with others of the same sex and with unrelated people of the same sex.

Are you about to again completely ignore the child in all this? Is a child not allowed to feel uncomfortable with an opposite sex person watching them in a changing room because a) a male says they are a woman and b) males who are not family use the change room with other males of all ages?

And are women not allowed to point out that males are the sex with a very high likelihood to committing sex crimes against females and not other females because of a & b as well?

Please do present your argument because we are all ears?

And I notice you handwaved away the last one? Why? Why is it ‘ I think in the last scenario it would be pretty context and fact specific. ?’

’ is it ok for a male of any age to be accommodated in a dormitory / room with females on a trip with school or girl guides?’

Surely this is yes or no?

School trip or girl guides. Not any other scenario. Not a family trip. A school trip or girl guides. That is the context.

What are the facts that would change this? Age? Why would age be relevant in these two scenarios? What else?

It’s important to remember there will have been many more lesbians at Pride who did not agree with the actions of the protesters

Oh ok, so I guess you and your friends should respect that most women in the U.K. want penis free toilets and changing rooms. It's important to remember that, don't you think?

That was a reference to correcting the lesbian’s understanding of her own identity as a lesbian.

thats not how it reads, but no matter.

The point still stands.

You're still suggesting potential partners should prioritise other peoples understanding of who they are, over their own physical experience of who they are.

The equivalent is me saying 'well you say you fancy Margot Robbie and I identify as being as attractive as her, so you'd be prejudiced to not fancy me'. Your position IS that stupid.

So of those "many more lesbians at Pride who did not agree with the actions of the protesters" how many of those were natal females and how many of those are in sexual relationships with trans women? As far as I can tell though tbf I'm not in the thick of things so I may be wrong, lots of lesbians and gays for that matter, talk the talk but don't walk the walk, meaning they'll spout support but won't date trans.