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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ladies Junior J Shield Semi Final #everythingsgoinggreatinireland

117 replies

miri1985 · 05/08/2022 21:55

Saw the photos of this on reddit (www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/wh2bl3/trans_inclusive_gaa_le_na_gaeil_aeracha/) and assumed it was a mixed game until I read here that this was the junior womens final
reduxx.info/irish-lgbtq-inclusive-football-team-with-transgender-player-wins-womens-junior-final/

"While Valentino’s exact age is unknown, in a 2021 panel interview he stated he had been playing sports for “over 30 years.” "

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Genesis1v27 · 10/08/2022 16:03

TheVeryThing · 10/08/2022 15:40

I've just seen that the IRFU are banning transgender women from women's rugby. This is good news & I hope other sporting organisations take note.

That is great news. The restriction appears to apply to contact rugby, at all levels. Naturally, there is already pushback. The IRFU have made a sensible decision on this, and must be commended if they stick to it. I'd like to see the issue framed differently, as keeping rugby single-sex rather than "excluding" or "banning" anyone from sports they didn't belong in in the first place.

Some reports:
[https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2022/0810/1314991-irfu-bans-transgender-women-from-female-contact-rugby/ RTÉ: IRFU bans transgender women players from female contact rugby]
[https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/irfu-confirms-transgender-women-will-be-banned-from-female-contact-rugby-competitions-for-upcoming-season-41902700.html Irish Independent: IRFU confirms transgender women will be banned from female contact rugby competitions for upcoming season]
[https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2022/08/10/irfu-excludes-transgender-women-from-participation-in-contact-rugby/ Irish Times: IRFU excludes transgender women from participation in contact rugby]
[https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2022/08/10/exclusion-of-trans-women-from-contact-rugby-sets-dangerous-precedent-advocates-say/ Irish Times: Exclusion of trans women from contact rugby sets ‘dangerous precedent’, advocates say]
[https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/arid-40937183.html Irish Examiner: IRFU bans transgender women from contact female rugby]
[https://www.the42.ie/irfu-bans-transgender-athletes-from-participating-in-womens-rugby-5837747-Aug2022/ The Journal: IRFU bans transgender women from contact female rugby]

TheVeryThing · 10/08/2022 15:40

I've just seen that the IRFU are banning transgender women from women's rugby. This is good news & I hope other sporting organisations take note.

3timeslucky · 10/08/2022 14:17

PegasusReturns · 08/08/2022 09:00

Interesting the independent are not running the article with a picture. It’s so easy to be sympathetic when not faced with visual representation of what this means: a middle agreed bald bloke about to tackle a teen girl.

It is a real pity. So many people "get it" when they see a picture of a man either playing on women's teams or standing on a medal podium flanked by women. This case is particularly striking because the individual in question doesn't appear to have transitioned in any way other than name which is not what people assume to be the case for a person who says they are trans.

Abhannmor · 10/08/2022 07:22

@Clymene Don't worry - I'm always cross posting stuff other ppl have said !

Actually the more often this is said the better

Abhannmor · 10/08/2022 07:17

Yes @mrshoho . I call this the 2nd Line of Defence. The 1st being : ' This never happens'.
So the 2nd Line is it happens so rarely , it's practically a white crow incident.

Eventually it moves to : ' It's happening , so what. Get used to it you bigot'

mrshoho · 09/08/2022 21:02

I think a thread here on Ireland would be useful, thanks @OhSister.

Reading the Newstalk article, Im gobsmacked! No thought whatsoever with regard to the women and girls. Also blatantly using the argument that it's only a handful of transwomen in sports and won't impact on the majority at all. Awful deceit.

OhSister · 09/08/2022 19:14

Between the Liveline discussions, the TENI issues, Barbie K, the All Together Now festival, the LGFA story, and now the HSE/Tavistock revelations, it seems there is finally a real conversation breaking through in Ireland.

I wonder if a running thread on Ireland in this section would be useful, in addition to any single issue threads that people want to post, of course... I'm not suggesting it all be kept to one thread only, just that a running thread might be a useful thing especially for any newer posters with an interest in how things are developing in Ireland?

miri1985 · 09/08/2022 17:41

Thanks for sharing that newstalk article @Genesis1v27 , its shocking to read the absolute the lack of care for womens safety, others feelings really do take priority. Personally I could give 2 figs if TENI are disappointed.

"They said there are “ways of managing who is marking who, who is playing against who so that it is played in a fair and equal way”."

🙄I have not played team sports since secondary school but even I know that in a match that would not work. Would it be a foul then if the trans player who was only supposed to mark X then tackles Y

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Genesis1v27 · 09/08/2022 15:37

The GAA story was also on Newstalk Breakfast this morning:

Ban on trans players in women's sport would be 'hugely negative' - TENI

h/t @Abhannmor on the Gender critical in Ireland thread.

Genesis1v27 · 09/08/2022 15:25

The HSE's Director for Integrated Care was on Morning Ireland this morning - incredibly, they are going to continue to refer children to Tavistock GIDS until it is shut.

RTÉ Morning Ireland: Criticism of the HSE's use of the Tavistock Clinic
RTÉ News: HSE defends patient referrals to UK's Tavistock clinic
Irish Times: Irish children with gender dysphoria may still be referred to UK’s Tavistock clinic, HSE says

Also, the GAA story is reported at Spiked:
www.spiked-online.com/2022/08/08/men-should-not-be-playing-in-womens-sports/

SolasAnla · 09/08/2022 12:58

After the High Court ruling in the Bell case in late 2020, the HSE wrote a letter of comfort for Crumlin hospital over its use of Tavistock. The hospital said it stopped using Tavistock after the Bell case but Irish patients have continued to be referred to Tavistock.

Just in case anybody missed what this was about.

The *letter of comfort& will be supplied to the hospitals insurance company. The comfort is that the Irish taxpayer will pick up any bill.

Hospital management will not have to worry about including a contingent liability in the financial statements nor plan to include litigation costs the hospital budget. Even with the best will in the world that puts that service, way way down the priority list of how to prevent financial disasters while running an underfunded hospital.

And the first line of defence is having good record keeping on management decisions, which they claim not to have so mature recollection will be laughed at in Court too.

miri1985 · 09/08/2022 11:41

@KatVonlabonk happy to repost that article anywhere is there a specific autism and dysphoria thread?

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miri1985 · 09/08/2022 11:28

Abhannmor · 09/08/2022 11:20

Who is the Labour guy , @mrshoho ? He seems a bit incoherent and almost emotionally invested . Or maybe he's just thick 🤔

Thats Aodhan O'Riordan, his pet cause seems to be getting rid of single sex schools because he was bullied as a child in an all boys school, absolutely no thought to the positive impact single sex schooling can have on girls

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Abhannmor · 09/08/2022 11:20

mrshoho · 08/08/2022 14:45

Not sure if this has been linked previously. A video from 8 years ago of a gender recognition hearing. 3.15 minutes in the Labour politician finding the issue wrt Sports 'Bizarre'. These highly educated fools laughed at the plausible consequences. IDIOTS.

Who is the Labour guy , @mrshoho ? He seems a bit incoherent and almost emotionally invested . Or maybe he's just thick 🤔

Abhannmor · 09/08/2022 11:14

So basically Novara are coaching confused young people on how to 'game the system '

Appallingly irresponsible. Let's hope they are held to account in some sane future.

FionaMacCool · 09/08/2022 10:39

ScreamingMeMe · 09/08/2022 10:21

Oh dear oh dear. That is really irresponsible. 😞😟

Abhannmor · 09/08/2022 10:13

I'd believe just about anything from Ash Sarkar. Total airhead who was once touted as the future of the Left. But then so was Owen Jones.

FionaMacCool · 09/08/2022 10:05

Clymene · 09/08/2022 09:34

As outlined in another thread, mermaids are targeting SEN organisations now and offering training to parents of autistic children.

And Ash Sarkar and Novara Media are telling kids to avoid MH support.

It's an absolute scandal.

I feel slightly sick to read this- is there evidence of this?

mrshoho · 09/08/2022 09:51

Scandal is right. This is what I find so hard to deal with. The scandal has happened and is still happening in plain sight. We know it's abhorrent the damage being inflicted on young people by professional clinicians.

Clymene · 09/08/2022 09:34

Sorry I meant to reiterate what you said @Abhannmor, not parrot it!

Clymene · 09/08/2022 09:34

As outlined in another thread, mermaids are targeting SEN organisations now and offering training to parents of autistic children.

And Ash Sarkar and Novara Media are telling kids to avoid MH support.

It's an absolute scandal.

Abhannmor · 09/08/2022 09:24

Helen Joyce said her ' epiphany ' was when she realised ' They are sterilising gay children '.

So now it turns out they are sterilising autistic children as well. An absolute scandal.

KatVonlabonk · 08/08/2022 16:01

miri1985 · 08/08/2022 12:10

Bloody hell, just reading the articles that were in the Sindo yesterday, the amount of young trans people with autism that the HSE is seeing has gone from 20% to 90%

www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/unquestioned-unproven-unsafe-hse-must-learn-from-britains-tavistock-gender-clinic-debacle-says-expert-41894871.html

Unquestioned, unproven, unsafe

Lessons must be learned from UK gender clinic debacle, says expert HSE's preferred model is still 'rushed' treatment despite discrediting of Tavistock centre's methods, doctor tells Mark Tighe

In 2009, the HSE began referring Irish children seeking treatment for gender issues to the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) run by the Tavistock NHS clinic in London. The numbers were small, but growing. Between 2011 and 2021, 234 Irish children, two as young as five, were referred to the clinic for treatment.

Irish children had to fly to London for appointments at first, but from 2014 Tavistock began holding satellite clinics in Crumlin children's hospital. The project was supported by Dr Philip Crowley, the HSE's head of quality improvement. However, the standard of care given to patients by Tavistock was soon called into question by doctors working in the National Gender Service (NGS) in Loughlinstown in south Dublin where adults and teenagers over 16 are treated.

In early 2019, senior clinicians in the NGS warned the HSE and Crumlin that Tavistock's Irish operation was "unsafe" and should be immediately shut down. Despite this, the HSE continued to use Tavistock even as alarm about its practices grew in the UK.

An interim report last March by Dr Hillary Cass, a consultant paediatrician commissioned by the UK government to examine Tavistock, found serious failings in how it assessed children and decided which were placed on puberty blockers.

Even though Tavistock is to close next year because of the fallout, the HSE has continued to use the service. "The Irish healthcare system has still been referring to GIDS in the financial year 2022/23," a Tavistock spokesman said.

The Cass report found children attending Tavistock faced a "clinician lottery". They either would be assessed for a range of psychological and social issues or instead would get a doctor who would see gender incongruence as "immutable", with the prescription of puberty blockers and hormones the only solution.

Staff felt pressurised to adopt an "unquestioning affirmative approach" to gender — at odds with standard clinical assessment requirements. A lack of documented assessments meant there was missing evidence justifying transition regimes that children were placed on.

This was all flagged in writing in 2019 by Dr Paul Moran, a consultant psychiatrist with the NGS in St Colmcille's hospital, who along with Donal O'Shea, a consultant endocrinologist, tried to shout "stop".

Dr Moran fears there is an ideological desire in the HSE to continue the Tavistock-type model of care. After years of unsuccessfully trying to recruit a consultant to start a Crumlin-led service for gender-questioning children in Ireland, Dr Moran has been told the HSE is now assessing a children's clinic in Belgium for Irish patients.

Having treated former child patients of the Tavistock Irish satellite in the NGS, Dr Moran is predicting significant numbers of patients will regret transitioning or have other adverse outcomes because they were "rushed" on to puberty blockers and hormones.

"We have good evidence from the patients we have seen that it is the wrong approach for most likely the majority," Dr Moran said. "There are some children who seem to do well, but at the moment there is no way of predicting at the start of treatment who will do well or badly.

"In cases where we've seen them and they've been left in a heap we've put resources in to try and fix their mental health, their social problems, try and get them back into college, et cetera."

Dr Moran believes the Tavistock service in Crumlin was set up without proper clinical governance or a service level agreement. Instead of Tavistock supervising care given by local Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services (CAMHS), Dr Moran said the satellite service which operated in Crumlin for six years had no proper supervision of its work.

Dr Moran and Dr O'Shea attended a meeting with Crumlin hospital management on March 20, 2019, to discuss how patients would graduate from the Tavistock service to the NGS. "We asked basic questions about the service, such as 'how many patients attended' and 'how many letters of referral there were'," Dr Moran said. Crumlin management said they had no knowledge about the service. 'Who approved it?' They had no idea."

As more patients aged out of Tavistock's care and into the NGS age cohort, Dr Moran and his colleagues became aware of the "very poor clinical service for children".

"We were coming across children who were clearly unwell and who had none of their underlying mental health problems addressed," Dr Moran said. "Many of them were not suitable or ready yet to be on hormone treatment. The endocrinologists working in Crumlin recognised that, too.

"They had basically gone over to Tavistock in distress, dropped out of school and started self-harming. They were rushed on to hormones but left sitting at home, not being schooled. Mental health issues were not addressed.

"There was this total focus on blockers and hormones, but the bigger problems that were pressing in their lives were ignored. By the time they got to us they were often a couple of years sitting in their rooms self-harming.

"There were some individuals who were practically mute who had started on hormone treatment. In contrast, Dr Moran said the NGS had a recent case of an adult woman who never had a job or felt comfortable in social settings who also had "a clear gender issue". After 15 months with the NGS this woman now has her first car, first job and is starting a third-level course.

"If at an early point you look after these things, people are more likely to do well," Dr Moran said. "That's why you need a multi-disciplinary team. We've got speech and language, occupational therapy, psychology, social work, nurs- ing, psychiatry and endocrinology. These people have a broader range of problems than just difficulty with their body.

"Tavistock had a very narrow approach, because they didn't have the clinical skill or the mix of professions, they become a very ideologically driven service. If you ignore the other problems and proceed with medical treatment, it doesn't just leave problems unaddressed, it generally worsens. A person who's really having difficulty engaging with life now, when they're on hormones, unprepared, that can worsen."

After the Keira Bell case emerged in 2020, where the young woman took a London High Court case alleging that she was improperly prescribed puberty blockers at age 16 by Tavistock, Dr Moran thought the HSE would reassess its relationship with Tavistock. Bell won her case in December 2020, but it was overturned on appeal in the summer 2021.

After the High Court ruling in the Bell case in late 2020, the HSE wrote a letter of comfort for Crumlin hospital over its use of Tavistock. The hospital said it stopped using Tavistock after the Bell case but Irish patients have continued to be referred to Tavistock.

Dr Moran said there needs to be clarity abut how Tavistock was set up in Ireland.

"There were a large number of meetings, but we haven't been able to find any minutes or record of them," he said. The key point is the shift from Tavistock psychologists working in their own hospital where they're employed, insured and supervised to working in a different country where they are not registered, with no supervision, no governance, no audit. It was a completely irregular thing."

Dr Moran believes the Cass report is a watershed moment. "The international consensus is rolling back against specialist hormone treatment for children before puberty," he said. While puberty blockers were previously described as "reversible", he said the emerging evidence is that administering them to children hitting puberty can have detrimental effects on bone growth and brain development.

"They're supposed to pause puberty to give time to grow up and to think about things so people can choose which way they wanted to go," he said. "But as time moved forward, the problems emerged. It seems that instead of providing a pause, it actually provided an acceleration. As soon as the children were started on blockers, the pressure on everybody to progress to sex hormones grew.

"It reversed the trend that previously about 80pc to 90pc of gender non-conforming kids became gender conforming after puberty. With this treatment, about 80 to 90pc of the kids who start with blockers remain gender non-conforming and move on to cross-gender hormones. That became alarming.

"Are we having an impact on not just the bone, not just the brain, on the whole social trajectory of what's happening? We've done a huge intervention."

Dr Moran said it is "really hard for a kid to say 'stop' when there's been such massive investment in what they want, by their family, by their doctor, by their school, by their peers". He said the idea of regret or people changing their minds is seen as "taboo" by some transgender activist groups. Patients tell him they are made feel unwelcome if they bring it up.

"There's such cultural taboo about regret that people feel shame if they say they're not happy because they're left out of the community," he said.

He also voices concern that some HSE-funded groups have coached patients to "get their stories straight" before being assessed so they have the best chance of being prescribed hormones.

"They are being told to deny mental health problems and particularly any history of suicide attempts when they come for assessments," Dr Moran said.

The NGS itself has more than 1,000 patients on a waiting list, with the newest patients facing a wait of up to five years unless capacity is increased. Dr Moran and his colleagues have proposed it could take on children in their mid-teens and this could be extended to lower ages in future years. He advocates for community services to provide services to gender-questioning children in the meantime.

Much of the surge has been caused by a huge increase in autistic people presenting. Dr Moran said while roughly 20pc of their cases involved autistic people five years ago, it is now approaching 90pc. These cases generally take far longer to process because of their complexity.

Dr Moran is now concerned the HSE will repeat the mistakes of its Tavistock alliance. "We have become aware that the HSE has been exploring moving gender care of Irish children to a clinic in Belgium," he said. "We have explained that this is a bad idea, for all the same reasons the Cass Report identified. The HSE seems wedded to this idea of specialist, hormone-based care for children, which is unsafe. It may be developed safely in the future, but right now, as we don't have evidence for the safety of these treatments."

@miri1985 any chance you could stick that on one of the autism and dysphoria threads...

It's bloody shocking to see it in black and white (although I suspected it all along)

Thank you