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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ben Cooper QC - Lawyer of the Week (in the Times)

761 replies

Justme56 · 04/08/2022 08:13

Sorry I can't share the article, but liked this:

What is the funniest thing that has happened in your job?

As a result of my work in this area, apparently becoming an object of admiration on Mumsnet [the Internet parents' forum] - improbable in many ways.

😁

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
Datun · 07/08/2022 05:44

Stonewall's "campaigning on gender theory is sexist and homophobic" and it is "complicit" in "threats against women (including threats of violence and sexual violence)". "Gender theory as proselytised by [Stonewall] is severely detrimental to women for numerous reasons" and is "severely detrimental to lesbians [...] This is inherently homophobic [....]".

Utterly damning.

Furries · 07/08/2022 03:50

Hearach15 · 06/08/2022 23:21

"Ben's exceptional performance" - he lost the case.

Stonewall had a much better lawyer.

snort

TheBiologyStupid · 07/08/2022 01:18

Sunfriedegg · 07/08/2022 00:39

I’m so glad I donated to Allison’s case. I’m also planting seeds for Shahrar Ali, Sarah’s legal challenge. Julie Bindel de-platformed by Nottingham council. And others I’m sure other vipers can name

Lisa Keogh, for one. www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4475571-Lisa-Keogh-being-assisted-by-Joanna-Cherry

Hearach15 · 07/08/2022 00:55

Sunfriedegg · 07/08/2022 00:40

Well done Ben , and Allison

Well done, Stonewall!

Sunfriedegg · 07/08/2022 00:40

Well done Ben , and Allison

Sunfriedegg · 07/08/2022 00:39

I’m so glad I donated to Allison’s case. I’m also planting seeds for Shahrar Ali, Sarah’s legal challenge. Julie Bindel de-platformed by Nottingham council. And others I’m sure other vipers can name

ErrolTheDragon · 07/08/2022 00:10

BlessedKali · 07/08/2022 00:05

Stonewall's "campaigning on gender theory is sexist and homophobic" and it is "complicit" in "threats against women (including threats of violence and sexual violence)". "Gender theory as proselytised by [Stonewall] is severely detrimental to women for numerous reasons" and is "severely detrimental to lesbians [...] This is inherently homophobic [....]".

Maybe I could get this iced on my big sexy chocolate cake

Like King Pyrrhus, I doubt they want another win like that.

It'd have to be a big cake.

Hearach15 · 07/08/2022 00:08

BlessedKali · 07/08/2022 00:05

Stonewall's "campaigning on gender theory is sexist and homophobic" and it is "complicit" in "threats against women (including threats of violence and sexual violence)". "Gender theory as proselytised by [Stonewall] is severely detrimental to women for numerous reasons" and is "severely detrimental to lesbians [...] This is inherently homophobic [....]".

Maybe I could get this iced on my big sexy chocolate cake

Getting a cake with that iced on it would be a better use of £££ than contributing to Ms Bailley's next legal case.

BlessedKali · 07/08/2022 00:05

Stonewall's "campaigning on gender theory is sexist and homophobic" and it is "complicit" in "threats against women (including threats of violence and sexual violence)". "Gender theory as proselytised by [Stonewall] is severely detrimental to women for numerous reasons" and is "severely detrimental to lesbians [...] This is inherently homophobic [....]".

Maybe I could get this iced on my big sexy chocolate cake

Hearach15 · 07/08/2022 00:01

TheBiologyStupid · 06/08/2022 23:57

Since you didn't read my post, @Hearach15, here's the short version of what Allison Bailey's case established as protected beliefs about Stonewall:

Stonewall's "campaigning on gender theory is sexist and homophobic" and it is "complicit" in "threats against women (including threats of violence and sexual violence)". "Gender theory as proselytised by [Stonewall] is severely detrimental to women for numerous reasons" and is "severely detrimental to lesbians [...] This is inherently homophobic [....]".

Not a good look for an organisation that was founded to fight for LGB rights, surely?

Stonewall won the case 😍

BlessedKali · 06/08/2022 23:58

Oh i do ever so hope that bunbury will bake everyone delicious treats to celebrate!

Hopefully of the no bite variety.

Something that just melts in your mouth into non-existance.

Tell you what though... I'd bake Ben a big fat sexy chocolate cake

TheBiologyStupid · 06/08/2022 23:57

Hearach15 · 06/08/2022 23:41

"Some victory for Stonewall!" Yes - they won, Allison Bailey lost 😍

Since you didn't read my post, @Hearach15, here's the short version of what Allison Bailey's case established as protected beliefs about Stonewall:

Stonewall's "campaigning on gender theory is sexist and homophobic" and it is "complicit" in "threats against women (including threats of violence and sexual violence)". "Gender theory as proselytised by [Stonewall] is severely detrimental to women for numerous reasons" and is "severely detrimental to lesbians [...] This is inherently homophobic [....]".

Not a good look for an organisation that was founded to fight for LGB rights, surely?

TopKnotch · 06/08/2022 23:50

Yes @ErrolTheDragon!

Great that we can all agree the judgement was a good thing!

Hearach15 · 06/08/2022 23:47

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

And she didn't even win on every aspect of her case against Garden Chambers. On the most important charge (loss of income) she lost.

S950 · 06/08/2022 23:46

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Hearach15 · 06/08/2022 23:45

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 06/08/2022 23:43

So you didn't watch the case, read any of the judgement, or do any research into this beyond reading one P××k News headline.

Case closed. Your opinion and posts are utterly irrelevant. Go and read a few books about Chip, Biff and Kipper, and don't return to us until you've developed a higher level of reading stamina.

Stonewall won. Allison Bailey lost.

If you're happy that Allison Bailey lost her case and think that's a success for the Gender Critical movement, well, good for you.

S950 · 06/08/2022 23:43

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 06/08/2022 23:43

Hearach15 · 06/08/2022 23:25

Whoever represented Stonewall - aka the lawyer who won the case.

So you didn't watch the case, read any of the judgement, or do any research into this beyond reading one P××k News headline.

Case closed. Your opinion and posts are utterly irrelevant. Go and read a few books about Chip, Biff and Kipper, and don't return to us until you've developed a higher level of reading stamina.

Hearach15 · 06/08/2022 23:41

TheBiologyStupid · 06/08/2022 23:39

Some victory for Stonewall! The Tribunal said in paragraph 293 of its judgement: “We concluded that all the claimant’s pleaded beliefs, not just the belief that woman is sex not gender, are protected”. Those protected beliefs, as set out in paragraph 279, are:

  1. The beliefs for which Equality Act protection is claimed are set out in paragraph 8 of the further revised amended particulars of claim:

“She believed (and continues to believe) that the first respondent’s [Stonewall’s] campaigning on gender theory is sexist and homophobic. In particular, the claimant believed and believes that:

(a) Sex is real and observable. Gender (as proselytised by the First Respondent) is a subjective identity: immeasurable, unobservable and with no objective basis.

(b) At the root of the First Respondent’s espousal of gender theory is the slogan that “Trans Women Are Women”. This is advanced literally, meaning that a person born as a man who identifies as a woman literally becomes a woman for all purposes and in all circumstances purely and exclusively on the basis of their chosen identity. To all intents and purposes, the First Respondent has reclassified “sex” with “gender identity”.

(c) The tone of the First Respondent’s campaigning on this subject has been binary, absolutist and evangelical. It may be summarised as “You are with us, or you are a bigot.” Discussions on the subject have become extremely vitriolic, largely as a result of the First Respondent’s absolutist tone, replicated by other organisations with which the First Respondent works closely. This has resulted in threats against women (including threats of violence and sexual violence) becoming commonplace. The First Respondent has been complicit in these threats being made.

(d) Gender theory as proselytised by the First Respondent is severely detrimental to women for numerous reasons, including that it denies women the ability to have female only spaces, for example in prisons, changing rooms, medical settings, rape and domestic violence refuges and in sport.

(e) Gender theory as proselytised by the First Respondent is severely detrimental to lesbians. In reclassifying “sex” with “gender”, the First Respondent has reclassified homosexuality from “same sex attraction” to “same gender attraction”. The result of this is that heterosexual men who identify as trans women and are sexually attracted to women are to be treated as lesbians. There is therefore an encouragement by followers of gender theory (including the First Respondent) on lesbians to have sex with male-bodied people. To reject this encouragement is to be labelled as bigoted. This is inherently homophobic because it denies the reality and legitimacy of same sex attraction and invites opprobrium and threatening behaviour upon people who recognise that reality and legitimacy.

(f) It is particularly damaging to lesbians that the First Respondent has taken this position. The First Respondent had been the foremost gay and lesbian rights campaigning organisation in the UK and one of the world’s leading such organisations. The adoption of gender theory by the First Respondent therefore left those gay, lesbian and bisexual people who did not ascribe to gender theory without the representation that the First Respondent had previously provided, and left those people labelled as bigots by their primary representative organisation.

"Some victory for Stonewall!" Yes - they won, Allison Bailey lost 😍

Hearach15 · 06/08/2022 23:40

ErrolTheDragon · 06/08/2022 23:37

Well, isn't it nice when everyone is happy?Smile
Ms Bailey and the numerous people who donated to fund her case are happy with her win against her employer.
Everyone is happy, apparently, with the result re stonewall - some see it as a victory, while others can see that if it was, it was a Pyrrhic one.

Quite. I'm delighted Stonewall was vindicated! I hope she has to pay their legal fees £££. 😍

TheBiologyStupid · 06/08/2022 23:39

Hearach15 · 06/08/2022 23:13

Why is he lawyer of the week - he lost the case against Stonewall and won in one aspect against Garden Chambers.

Surely Stonewall's lawyers who won the case in court are more deserving of this accolade?

Some victory for Stonewall! The Tribunal said in paragraph 293 of its judgement: “We concluded that all the claimant’s pleaded beliefs, not just the belief that woman is sex not gender, are protected”. Those protected beliefs, as set out in paragraph 279, are:

  1. The beliefs for which Equality Act protection is claimed are set out in paragraph 8 of the further revised amended particulars of claim:

“She believed (and continues to believe) that the first respondent’s [Stonewall’s] campaigning on gender theory is sexist and homophobic. In particular, the claimant believed and believes that:

(a) Sex is real and observable. Gender (as proselytised by the First Respondent) is a subjective identity: immeasurable, unobservable and with no objective basis.

(b) At the root of the First Respondent’s espousal of gender theory is the slogan that “Trans Women Are Women”. This is advanced literally, meaning that a person born as a man who identifies as a woman literally becomes a woman for all purposes and in all circumstances purely and exclusively on the basis of their chosen identity. To all intents and purposes, the First Respondent has reclassified “sex” with “gender identity”.

(c) The tone of the First Respondent’s campaigning on this subject has been binary, absolutist and evangelical. It may be summarised as “You are with us, or you are a bigot.” Discussions on the subject have become extremely vitriolic, largely as a result of the First Respondent’s absolutist tone, replicated by other organisations with which the First Respondent works closely. This has resulted in threats against women (including threats of violence and sexual violence) becoming commonplace. The First Respondent has been complicit in these threats being made.

(d) Gender theory as proselytised by the First Respondent is severely detrimental to women for numerous reasons, including that it denies women the ability to have female only spaces, for example in prisons, changing rooms, medical settings, rape and domestic violence refuges and in sport.

(e) Gender theory as proselytised by the First Respondent is severely detrimental to lesbians. In reclassifying “sex” with “gender”, the First Respondent has reclassified homosexuality from “same sex attraction” to “same gender attraction”. The result of this is that heterosexual men who identify as trans women and are sexually attracted to women are to be treated as lesbians. There is therefore an encouragement by followers of gender theory (including the First Respondent) on lesbians to have sex with male-bodied people. To reject this encouragement is to be labelled as bigoted. This is inherently homophobic because it denies the reality and legitimacy of same sex attraction and invites opprobrium and threatening behaviour upon people who recognise that reality and legitimacy.

(f) It is particularly damaging to lesbians that the First Respondent has taken this position. The First Respondent had been the foremost gay and lesbian rights campaigning organisation in the UK and one of the world’s leading such organisations. The adoption of gender theory by the First Respondent therefore left those gay, lesbian and bisexual people who did not ascribe to gender theory without the representation that the First Respondent had previously provided, and left those people labelled as bigots by their primary representative organisation.

ErrolTheDragon · 06/08/2022 23:37

Well, isn't it nice when everyone is happy?Smile
Ms Bailey and the numerous people who donated to fund her case are happy with her win against her employer.
Everyone is happy, apparently, with the result re stonewall - some see it as a victory, while others can see that if it was, it was a Pyrrhic one.

TopKnotch · 06/08/2022 23:36

Did we ever find out if he actually stood the whole time, or was he on some sort of kneely stool thing?

I wonder if that's his usual working position - I would have to have way more breaks and little sits!

Hearach15 · 06/08/2022 23:35

"The tribunal also rejected Ms Bailey's claim against her chambers that she had lost work and income because of her beliefs."

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-62294030

Should also be noted that Mr Cooper did not even win his client's case against Garden Chambers on the most important aspect of the case. Had he won this part of the case AB would have been entitled to substantial compensation £££.

BlessedKali · 06/08/2022 23:33

Bunbury makes the best captain! Keeps us all on course.