Argentina, gender self-id and risk to women

Hoy en día, a casi cinco años de la Ley de Identidad de Gé- nero en la Argentina, manifestar la identidad autopercibida lleva a que aproximadamente el 98% de las personas travestis y trans no acceda a un trabajo formal y un 79% de las personas travestis y trans caiga en las redes de prostitución como único ingreso económico, lo^ cual acarrea mayor exclusión y vulneración, alcanzando un prome- dio de vida de 35 años. Por este motivo, pensar en las compañeras que superan esta edad es pensar en sobrevivientes.^

The Revolution of the Butterfiles report is quoted as a primary source of statistics in one report, but they are just referring to the well known and false "life expectancy of 35" claim, or alternatively they refer to the other Argentine report mentioned where a large proportion of the sample were HIV positive MTF, most were in prostitution and a considerable majority died of HIV related illnesses.

Good point

I said maybe I'm mistaken because tbh this argument is new and there are nuances that I'm not knowledgeable enough or that I haven't consider enough to talk about. So I do like to be enlightened about different aspects and different arguments 😉

*give an inch - I don't know where the "inch" disappeared to

I'm working on the premise that we don't give an any more - ever - because if we do, they'll find a way to turn it into mile.

So - facilities for biological sex only, thank you very much.

Some of the information about Argentina in previous posts is misleading.
yes, abortion was only legalised in 2020, but only three countries in all of Latin America legalised abortion before Argentina (Cuba, Guyana and Uruguay) so it is not an outlier in its continent.
The literacy rate in Argentina is 99% and does not differ significantly, if at all, between men and women.
Argentina has had two female presidents and currently has a female Vice President (who is a former President) — not necessarily an indicator of women’s rights but suggests it is not as “macho” as some posters seem to think.
(I have worked in Argentina and have friends and distant relatives there so have some knowledge of the country — both faults and virtues).

Here are some perspectives from TRAs of various countries including Argentina. There is mixing up of gender and sex, and a call for official documents to mention neither.
privacyinternational.org/long-read/4372/my-id-my-identity-impact-id-systems-transgender-people-argentina-france-and

Greta Pena, a senior policy officer at Argentina's equality ministry, said there was no evidence of any rise in violence against non-trans women since the law was passed.

I mean - "it's been 10 years, and women are still killed at the same rate, so letting anyone be a woman is fine" isn't exactly the flex I'd go for...

As an example of committees disregarding the perspective and input of women of faith, page 1 of this thread has an outline of this and some useful links.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4561351-scottish-greens-staffer-accuses-msp-of-weaponising-religion-against-transgender-people

But maybe I'm mistaken

It doesn't matter whether you are mistaken or not. We don't get to give away rights on behalf of other women because individual women don't care about them.

There are many women who do care about sex-based rights, their protected characteristic as women of faith who may have substantial religious and cultural restrictions on being present with a member of the other sex class, or the social understanding that, for example, single sex spaces women's respect right to dignity and privacy.

Tbh I don't think I mind faux ones 🤷🏻‍♀️ (not talking about shelters)

My biggest concern is getting raped so I don't think I'll be raped by a faux vagina

But maybe I'm mistaken

I get stuck in my search due to language problems. I find several web pages about the Revolution of the Butterflies, and as far as I can tell, they refer to the Ciudad Autonoma de Buenos Aires as the source of the data. Further attempts to get anywhere has me going round in circles where the final summary of results are given, but no reference to the actual study.

I have a friend who can help me with the language later so hope lives eternal.

Officials say data shows no rise in violence against women. …said there was no evidence of any rise in violence against non-trans women since the law was passed.

but surely your statement means that transgender people are behaving exactly the same as they did before transition? So behaving at the same rates as their sex? If transwomen had the same rates of crime against women as women, then violence against women would go down.

However, it’s impossible to work out what is going on, as other people have said, until data can be collected properly. And how many women have to be assaulted to negate transwomen’s discomfort?

Yup, we need a campaign to 1) press all relevant facility providers to make toilets etc. single sex; 2) to get providers to label doors to those facilities to spell out very clearly who can enter; and 3) to get the providers to train their staff to know about and uphold the policy.

[Ideally, 4) to amend the Equality Act to make single-sex spaces the default and for any deviation from that to have to be justified as "a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim" - well, I can dream.]

Quite. Malta is held up as some sort of shining example of human rights excellence by self id zealots. Malta, where abortion is illegal in all circumstances.

@IamAporcupine , thank you very much for those references. Much appreciated. I need to study them.

Agree @grey12

And they need to be proper vaginas/penises - not faux vaginas cobbled together out of bits of bowel or inverted penises, or faux penises constructed out of forearm and thigh flesh.

Use the facilities for the SEX you were born.

Bugger your gender!

I don’t believe the processing of the stats is bullet proof. It’s a male dominated country, the report talks solely of violence and as we know women often don’t report violent crimes

I've said it in a previous post:

We need to make "vagina toilets" and "penis toilets" 🤷🏻‍♀️ regardless of what people look like! Same goes for changing rooms, prisons and shelters

Thank you.

I couldn't have put it better.

I'm also not sure that I believe the reports from Argentina - or perhaps that abuse of women was so appalling to begin with that the trans ID was just another drop in a vast ocean of oppression. Or maybe they are just being silenced. Or murdered. Or ignored.

Thanks for the links.

@nepeta

bancos.salud.gob.ar/sites/default/files/2020-10/guia-salud-personas-trans-travestis-nobinarias.pdf

Page 46 -
The estimated average lifespan of trans women and transvestites is 35-40 years old (4) well below life expectancy of the general population, which in Argentina is 77 years (5)
.
The data collected by The Revolution of the Butterflies in CABA indicate that trans women and transvestites die, in average, 32 years old, product of the systematic and structural violence and social, political and economic exclusion. of 192 trans women and transvestites who died between 2011 and 2016,
83% were under 40 years old at the time of their death.

According to this study, the leading cause of death is HIV or associated diseases, such as tuberculosis, pneumonia or pneumonia (64%) and the second cause is homicides (15%). Other causes mentioned are: cirrhosis, overdose, problems derived from silicone injections and suicide.

Ref (4) is rather vague...
This is listed as one of the sources but I cannot see it anywhere

www.huesped.org.ar/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/OSI-informe-FINAL.pdf

It's very telling that the most traditional and religious countries (Iran, Malta, Argentina, Ireland) with appalling records on women's rights are falling over themselves to introduce self ID.

My friend lives in Argentina. It is very male dominated. They don't even have equal pay laws so she was (legally) paid less than the men doing the same job!

I think this reply says it all