Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 2

1004 replies

ickky · 03/05/2022 15:13

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal
select the video and mic that are not crossed out, this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, barrister for SW
RW = Robin White assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 1 👇

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
TeenPlusCat · 05/05/2022 15:58

What is the burden of proof needed here?
Is it 'beyond reasonable doubt' or 'on the balance of probabilities' or something else?

tabbycatstripy · 05/05/2022 15:56

I don't think IO is doing that badly. She has managed to cast some doubt on AB's ability to prove that GCC's actions were substantially directed by Stonewall as a corporate entity. I still think they were influenced by Stonewall, and I still think they used a veiled threat, but the judge might not.

yourhairiswinterfire · 05/05/2022 15:55

I'm confused again.

IO arguing that SW didn't know about Allison's email to her chambers...wasn't that what MB's email was about? Where she says ''great, now Allison's wholly unfounded allegations are going to be aired with Ruth Hunt-nothing like washing our dirty, transphobic laundry in public''.

Someone told Ruth Hunt about Allison's objections to Stonewall? So they did know?

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 05/05/2022 15:54

Ah ha! At least I now know why they were so reluctant to mute everybody! Because they then have to individually unmute the people who are supposed to be speaking!

That hadn't crossed my mind!

Original poster
ickky · 05/05/2022 15:49

Chrysanthemum5 · 05/05/2022 15:45

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine IO is a QC and must have worked very hard to get there and presumably is competent but these questions seem very odd and her delivery appears hesitant

Well you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

OP posts:
nauticant · 05/05/2022 15:48

There's been a long discussion about "two tweets". As I understand it:

First tweet: twitter.com/bluskyeallison/status/1175739790181974017

Second tweet: twitter.com/BluskyeAllison/status/1188365954255863808

The first tweet is why IO felt compelled to wander into the dubious territory of discussing the Cotton Ceiling.

Chrysanthemum5 · 05/05/2022 15:47

I get that @tabbycatstripy her questions just don't seem to be supporting that line

chilling19 · 05/05/2022 15:46

IO is hectoring Allison. Not a good look.

tabbycatstripy · 05/05/2022 15:45

She's trying to disrupt the linkage between any treatment of AB by GCC and the actions of Stonewall.

Chrysanthemum5 · 05/05/2022 15:45

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine IO is a QC and must have worked very hard to get there and presumably is competent but these questions seem very odd and her delivery appears hesitant

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 05/05/2022 15:43

Chrysanthemum5 · 05/05/2022 15:42

I'm assuming IO feels these questions are helpful but they seem to be setting the tone that stonewall were threatening

I know. I'm really confused about what she is trying to get at.

GrinitchSpinach · 05/05/2022 15:43

nauticant · 05/05/2022 15:34

KM = Kirrin Medcalf, see E2818 of the bundle.

Thanks, nauticant! So many players to keep track of.

Allison seems to be holding up beautifully. It’s a sunny day here—I may need to step out and do a bit of gardening soon!

I am amazed IO drew attention to the Cotton Ceiling issue, but very pleased it was aired in court. Do you think SW really believe that one plays well to the general public?

Chrysanthemum5 · 05/05/2022 15:42

I'm assuming IO feels these questions are helpful but they seem to be setting the tone that stonewall were threatening

chilling19 · 05/05/2022 15:37

You are doing a sterling job Allison. Hope you are managing to get a good night's sleep each night.

nauticant · 05/05/2022 15:34

KM = Kirrin Medcalf, see E2818 of the bundle.

Pluvia · 05/05/2022 15:33

I'm finding IO very difficult to understand at times. Is it just me or is she using lots of double negatives and inversions? I can't understand what the question is a lot of the time, there are so many clauses and sub-clauses.

tabbycatstripy · 05/05/2022 15:33

The Emma Barnett/Nancy Kelley interview is in the evidence bundle as a transcript.

nauticant · 05/05/2022 15:31

KM = Kirrin Medalf, see E2818 of the bundle.

tabbycatstripy · 05/05/2022 15:31

I can't see how else 'associate' can be read. She has a tenancy, that's all. She's not their mate.

nauticant · 05/05/2022 15:30

Ahh, looking at Kirrin Medalf's email, IO's point was that AB's tweets were so offensive that KM raising them with GCC in the way they did wasn't about making a threat but was purely out of concern at such terrible behaviour.

Still, Morgan Page as an example of the subject of a tweet was not the hill to die on.

tabbycatstripy · 05/05/2022 15:30

'I think it does.'

'I think it does.'

'I think it does.'

I adore her.

TensionWheelsCooIHeels · 05/05/2022 15:28

Has to post this 😁

"If a barrister representing Stonewall misgenders a Stonewall-approved lesbian (© @jk_rowling), should Stonewall make a complaint to Stonewall about Stonewall?"

Link to tweet

GrinitchSpinach · 05/05/2022 15:28

Who is KM? I’ve lost the abbreviation key.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 05/05/2022 15:23

InvisibleDragon · 05/05/2022 15:03

Off-topic, but thinking about pronouns discussion earlier on. Whilst I don't object to using someone's preferred name and pronouns, I really dislike seeing pronouns in email signatures etc.

I think this is because it broadcasts acceptance of a particular (religious) worldview that prioritises an internal felt sense of gender identity over biological sex (with all the sexism and stereotypes that come along with that). That is not a privilege afforded to any other protected belief.

No workplace would be comfortable with an employee writing "I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour" or "Vote Labour" in their email signatures, so why on earth is it acceptable to prominently signal your belief in gender identity?

I've worked with people who openly displayed their religious beliefs. They were generally greeted with an eye roll or regarded with suspicion by other employees.

I never found out one guy's reaction when he (part of a team developing a computer system), filled in 3 boxes on screen with one word each:
Jesus
Is
Lord

Overnight, someone - not me! - changed them to:
Jesus
It's
Slow

😂

And now, back to the serious stuff. I've done some gardening recently, & I feel I'm getting a lot back for the work I put in. Allison is wonderful.

SpindleInTheWind · 05/05/2022 15:23

The last Green Party canvasser I had a my door was wearing a 'Trans Rights' badge and when I asked him to explain the ethics of the 'cotton ceiling' to me he said he'd never heard of it. I advised him to go away and look it up and come back when he had; and he dutifully wrote it down in his notebook.

Never saw him again.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

Join Mumsnet Log In
This thread is not accepting new messages.