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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hell of an email re safeguarding.

65 replies

tableandchairsgreen · 26/04/2022 17:28

Just got this from DCs' school. It kinda beggars belief. No safeguarding risk with mixed sex loos, changing rooms and overnight accommodation. Just Ewwww.

Anyway so off I'll be going to the LEA. Any advice?
Is it worth posting my location to gather some like minded friends?

Email:
As a school we follow the advice of the Local authority which includes the trans toolkit and this was first published in 2013. The toolkit advised schools that “The general approach should be to ‘use the toilet you want to use’.” that “Changing rooms can be communal rooms in keeping with their gender identity”, and that “Pupils should be able to sleep where they feel most comfortable. This is especially important when sleeping arrangements are made on the basis of gender.”

More recently the updated guidance produced for [local] Council asserts that “In all cases, trans pupils or students should have access to the changing room that corresponds to their gender identity”, and that a trans-identified male pupil “is a girl and as such has the right under the Equality Act to change with the girls”. The toolkit does not contain an Equality Impact Assessment, nor are schools advised to carry one out to assess the impact of introducing its guidance on all the other protected characteristics.

This Toolkit also states that there are “no provisions in child protection and safeguarding legislation specific to trans children and young people aside from what is in place to keep all pupils and students safe” and they therefore conclude that “There is nothing to prohibit trans children and young people using the changing rooms or toilets which reflect their gender identity.” This approach is underpinned by the Equality Act 2010, whereby refusing a child or young person access to the changing room of their gender identity would constitute an act of discrimination.”

If you require further information about the toolkit then the LA are best served to answer any queries.

OP posts:
Mandodari · 26/04/2022 20:48

"Pupils should be able to sleep where they feel most comfortable. This is especially important when sleeping arrangements are made on the basis of gender.”

I wonder where the average horny teenage boy would feel more comfortable sleeping?

poshme · 26/04/2022 20:21

If your MP is useles, maybe try writing to Nadhim Zahawi- he's in charge of education. You could email him and say you're not a constituent- but emailing specifically to ask when he's releasing the new guidance for schools because you are concerned with

PaleBlueMoonlight · 26/04/2022 20:01

Yes, probably worth asking for a copy of the previous policy as well. If it was a big change or a completely new policy I would expect there to have been lots of discussion.

tableandchairsgreen · 26/04/2022 19:55

‘I would want to know when the policy was approved by the governors and to see the minutes of the meeting(s) at which it was discussed and approved.’

Great point. Will ask.
and for the date the guidelines changed.

OP posts:
SolasAnla · 26/04/2022 19:52

bellac11 · 26/04/2022 17:45

How is that going to change anything? They will just say yes the girls can use the boys changing rooms, why wouldnt they?

Because risk assessment needs to assess potential harm occurring.

So in a changing room there can be:
Option 1
• a single female "A" changing in a changing room with a number of females.
Option 2
• a single female "A" changing in a changing room with a number of males.
Option 3
• a single male "A" changing in a changing room with a number of males.
Option 4
• a single male "A" changing in a changing room with a number of females.

Q Is there a risk of harm from another child (child "B") eg Sexual assault of child A by child B.

Q If there is, in which option(s) is child B more likely to sexual assault child A and why?

If you can rank them then the school have a duty of care to put in controls to reduce the risk.

donquixotedelamancha · 26/04/2022 19:52

yes the comment about how males can use the girls’ changing rooms is quite sinister. No pretend of he/ she/ they can.

I don't think that's sinister, I think it's very clear: we are doing as we are told.

I've never taught at a school which lets boys change with girls- it certainly isn't something schools must do.

I would never normally say this but I think this letter needs to reach the daily mail- sunlight can be very effective in concentrating minds to look up the actual law as apposed to the stonewall approved 'guidance' they are using.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 26/04/2022 19:51

I have in my mind that schools have to make their own decisions about policies. Of course they would almost always adopt policies approved by the LA (because it is a good defence in the event of judicial review) but I think the onus is on the school governors to have thought about and passed that school's policy. I don't think that the existence of a tool kit promoted by the LA absolves then of that responsibility.

I would want to know when the policy was approved by the governors and to see the minutes of the meeting(s) at which it was discussed and approved.

AnneLovesGilbert · 26/04/2022 19:38

Sex Matters has just produced guidance for schools. Might be worth checking and sending them. Don’t have a link to hand but have a search.

That email is a shit show, thank you for responding as you are. I’ve got a daughter starting school in a year and this whole thing scares the absolute shit out of me.

BangtanLove · 26/04/2022 19:38

I definitely read it as the writer is treading a line to ensure they can't be sacked/reprimanded for not being on-message, but they absolutely understand the implications and want it to be crystal clear. They are trying to hoist the school/LA on their own petard, essentially.

tabbycatstripy · 26/04/2022 19:34

It’s unacceptable.

tableandchairsgreen · 26/04/2022 19:25

MP we’re in the home of green. But you are right, I shouldn’t assume the response.

will Google Oxford and the case recommended.

I read the email as totally arse covering, but pleased you all disagree. It is a bit ‘the big boys did it’.

It seems a MASSIVE change to make all the facilities mixed gender and not tell any parents.

OP posts:
BangtanLove · 26/04/2022 19:14

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 26/04/2022 18:51

That letter is so full of errors and misreading of the law.

Absolutely - but they are directly quoting the guidance they've been given. This email is a plea for parents to complain to the LA - OP I'd suggest you do exactly that and let whoever sent this know that you've done it. They will probably appreciate it.

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 26/04/2022 18:51

That letter is so full of errors and misreading of the law.

tabbycatstripy · 26/04/2022 18:38

I’m hoping the upcoming guidance from the EHRC will help resolve this.

The alternative is to take it up with the LA, councillors and your MP. Ultimately your daughter will be disadvantaged because it is far from reasonable to expect her to change in front of male students, she will have to be removed from those lessons, and you could take legal action to uphold her rights to participate fully.

WoodenClock · 26/04/2022 18:34

Noisyprat · 26/04/2022 17:39

Interesting. Perhaps you should email them and just confirm that all the girls who identify as boys can use the boys changing rooms........

might get them thinking before you go in with what the actual Equality Act does state .....

Both my experience and recent data from Tavistock is that among children, there are now far more girls identifying as boys than vice versa and yes, this guidance would apply in that situation.

IcakethereforeIam · 26/04/2022 18:30

I think it's worthwhile writing to your MP, even if it's just so they can't claim ignorance.

ChopinBoard · 26/04/2022 18:23

I remember a thread from ages ago, sorry can't find it but the gist was:

LEA produce or promote a particular toolkit and say it is up to individual schools to risk assess.

Schools say the toolkit is produced/promoted by the LEA so we assume they've crossed all the Ts and dotted all the Is 🙄

No one actually risk assesses.

StrongOutspokenOftenIrritating · 26/04/2022 18:16

Someone at that school has their head screwed on. If they’re local to me I’ll write to the LA. In fact even if they aren’t I’ll write. Concern for vulnerable children isn’t limited by geography.

WhiteFire · 26/04/2022 18:14

But as Noisyprat says the email doesn't mention the transboy with boys scenario, bringing it up might get them thinking a bit more about the implications.

Whoever wrote that email wants people to complain. Saying a boy will change with the girls will make more people go "WHAT?"

itsgettingweird · 26/04/2022 18:13

Simple

"Does the toolkit also have any paragraph about the rights of females and males to change with those born with the same sex as them and their right to change where they feel comfortable? Does the toolkit have any explanations about how a social construct such as gender has priority and is a protected characteristic over sexual biology that pupils cannot control. Does it say ate anywhere why woman and girls have have to change in front of men - before the age of sexual consent - because the men/boys state they are more comfortable with that?"

I don't get why they can't just have separate spaces for those who say they are trans gender. It's really not ok for one persons rights to trump another Angry

WhiteFire · 26/04/2022 18:09

It seems very much written in a style of being completely factual, so can't be accused of "transphobia" whilst also being written in a way that lays it out absolutely clearly what the impact is, alongside the plea to take it higher.

StillWeRise · 26/04/2022 18:08

BangtanLove · 26/04/2022 17:39

Well that sounds like they are encouraging parents to complain to the LA because they feel their hands are tied and they need parents to provide impetus/leverage.

I agree
they are hoping that parents will go...you what????
and then they will have to change/do an impact assessment or whatever
OP there are some LAs who have gone back on all the trans stuff...I think maybe Oxford, after a girl pupil took them to court or something? Cite that.

MissPollysFitDolly · 26/04/2022 18:06

bellac11 · 26/04/2022 17:51

I agree with you, I just think they are unlikely to say no.

But as Noisyprat says the email doesn't mention the transboy with boys scenario, bringing it up might get them thinking a bit more about the implications.

tableandchairsgreen · 26/04/2022 18:00

to answer a few questions:

yes it’s a normal school. Not academy.
yes the email was cut and paste, no changes.
yes the comment about how males can use the girls’ changing rooms is quite sinister. No pretend of he/ she/ they can.

I’m on the safer schools website, thanks for that. Will also read up on the other thread.

I guess the next thing to do is write a letter to the head of education in the council. Maybe make it recorded so it can’t ‘get lost’.

No point writing to my MP. She is the most captured of them all. 😉

OP posts: