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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman's hour 7th feb - pregnant people

83 replies

WarriorN · 07/02/2022 09:47

They're doing a piece on the language of reproduction:

Woman's hour 7th feb - pregnant people
OP posts:
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jadelou85 · 13/02/2022 18:36

@JellySaurus

Hi President Biden! Thank you so much for doing this. I'm wondering if you could adjust your wording from "women's healthcare" to "healthcare for people who get pregnant and bleed". I am a (trans) woman, but don't need these services. Thank you for your work!

Truly bizarre. I'm a person who does not get pregnant and does not bleed, because I'm a post-menopause woman. I don't need these services either, any more than I need healthcare aimed at people who emasculate. So guess what, Eliana, I just walk on by. How about you do the same?

And BTW, Eliana, even though I don't need those specific services aimed at pregnant women and menstruating women, I still need women's healthcare because I am female. It's nothing to do with you.

Why do these people use the term 'trans-woman' if it's not to distinguish themselves from actual 'women' (I always think this when some idiot asks 'are trans-women real women' - you've sort of answered your own question). The 'services' she saw were for 'women' and she doesn't need them becuase she's a 'trans-woman'. So everything works. Except it's not really about that at all and everyone with a brain cell on duty can see it. This sort of thing is exactly what you'd expect from someone that was so confused in life that they decided that they wanted to go through surgery and god-knows what else becuase they want to be a different gender. I don't hold anything against people that go through this - in fact I feel for them - but it doesn't give them licence to get away with anything they like when you're out in the real world.
jadelou85 · 13/02/2022 18:03

@IvyTwines

A few weeks ago, during the Radio 5 weekly medical phone in a discussion on changes to women's menstrual cycles from the Covid jab, Colin Murray actually paused and apologised for saying 'women's periods' and changed it to just 'periods' and 'people'. This was not long after the Stonewall podcasts came out (with, it was very noticeable, none of the usual advertising, trailers or promotion that other podcasts get). In a programme earlier in the evening, also on Radio 5, discussing men's health, the words men, man was used throughout, no problem, no intervention from producers or upset listeners.
'Women's periods' is fine. 'Periods' is fine becuase 'woman/women' is implied.

'People's periods' is mental and and anyone that uses it needs to be given a wide berth until they come to their senses.

RedToothBrush · 08/02/2022 16:49

@FrancescaContini

Surely the onus is on the individual to stay abreast - no pun intended whatsoever - of what their healthcare needs may be?? Is it really the responsibility of the NHS to remind people that they still have a cervix etc? Confused
So someone with learning difficulties can grasp they are a woman or a man but probably isn't up to date with the latest crap like this.

Also see people who don't have English as a first language.

But hell we are being inclusive - apart from disable and for those from other countries....

TheWeeDonkey · 08/02/2022 16:38

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

If that tweet surprises you, cast an eye over this one, dated seven days before. "People who bleed" was absolutely fine, apparently!
Mate we all bleed. A kick in the teeth will prove that right, which is exactly what this is, but you can't monetize people if you don't remove them from their humanity first.
JellySaurus · 08/02/2022 16:03

Hi President Biden! Thank you so much for doing this. I'm wondering if you could adjust your wording from "women's healthcare" to "healthcare for people who get pregnant and bleed". I am a (trans) woman, but don't need these services. Thank you for your work!

Truly bizarre. I'm a person who does not get pregnant and does not bleed, because I'm a post-menopause woman. I don't need these services either, any more than I need healthcare aimed at people who emasculate. So guess what, Eliana, I just walk on by. How about you do the same?

And BTW, Eliana, even though I don't need those specific services aimed at pregnant women and menstruating women, I still need women's healthcare because I am female. It's nothing to do with you.

InvisibleDragon · 08/02/2022 15:54

Thank you Bosky - the devil is always on the detail isn't it.

Oh look! After messing up NHS records over many years the LGBT Foundation says next on our agenda is Trans Status Monitoring working with NHS Digital! How lovely!

After making it totally impossible to meaningfully monitor trans status at all I presume.

The mess this creates is unbelievably frustrating. It particularly galls me that this is being used (as per the BBC article) as another example of how trans people are marginalised and disadvantaged. Despite it being the result of changes they demanded, despite being warned of how detrimental they would be.

DomesticatedZombie · 08/02/2022 15:41

Bosky, thank you.

ScrollingLeaves · 08/02/2022 15:25

Thank you Bosky for being able to give this detailed, scientific information.

Bosky · 08/02/2022 05:40

@InvisibleDragon

This was one of the cases where changing your sex to your gender identity on medical records nearly resulted in tragedy: www.bbc.com/future/article/20200814-why-our-medical-systems-are-ignoring-transgender-people In Whitley’s case, the problem was how the severity of kidney disease is assessed. The usual protocol is to calculate a patient’s “estimated glomerular filtration rate” (eGFR), which measures the amount of a certain waste product in their blood and therefore shows how efficient their kidneys are at filtering it out. If the eGFR is below a certain level, it’s an indication that their kidneys are failing and they are eligible for a transplant.

There are several different lower limits for an eGFR, depending on things like a person’s weight, age, gender and race, which are intended to reflect the natural variation in the human body. Based on the female cut-off, he would have been allowed a transplant immediately. But he’s registered as a man on his medical records, and this meant his doctors used the male eGFR level. He wasn’t put on the list until he reached it – a decision that ultimately delayed the surgery by over a year, and very nearly cost him his life.

"Consider this: if you were to look through every single medical record in the UK – all 55 million – you won’t find a single record labelled as belonging to a transgender person."

And whose fault is that, pray?!

"How does the NHS record information about sex and gender identity?"
Fair Play for Women
16th June 2021

Extracts

2014: The stealth introduction of the concept of gender identity, starting with HIV/AIDS data

2016: PERSON GENDER AT REGISTRATION (sex at birth) was dropped from the dataset at the request of the LGBT Foundation and ‘transgender community’. The Requirement Specification documentation suggested this was because they had been told it may not be legal to ask. This was clearly incorrect advice accepted without the necessary due diligence by the NHS.

Extract from Requirement Specification: “gender birth – work with the LGBT Foundation and the transgender community has informed that it is not good practice or possibly even legal to ask for gender at birth therefore we propose to remove this field from the dataset”

2018: a second dataset was updated to include GENDER IDENTITY CODE (SEXUAL HEALTH) and GENDER IDENTITY SAME AT BIRTH. This was the GUMCAD Sexually Transmitted Infection Surveillance System Data Set.

The Change Specification document states the reason for the update was to be more inclusive of trans and non-binary people.

2021: a third dataset has now been earmarked for updating. This time it’s the Mental Health Services Data Set. Changes will come into affect in October 2021.

PERSON STATED GENDER CODE will be replaced with GENDER IDENTITY CODE. This is currently marked in the NHS dictionary as ‘being used for development purposes and has not yet been approved”. Unlike GENDER IDENTITY CODE (SEXUAL HEALTH) it appears that this new category will not be restricted for use in specific medical areas (note that there is no GENDER IDENTITY CODE (MENTAL HEALTH) in the NHS dictionary. The creation of this generic category for gender identity may reflect a future intention to use it more widely across all dataset as and when they each get updated.

What is becoming clear is that over the last 20 years the ability to accurately record data on the material reality of sex has been slowly eroded within the NHS. The concept of gender identity is now taking its place. We have found no evidence that data experts or stakeholder representatives for sex-based rights have been consulted as these changes were introduced. Instead, it is LGBT representatives who have been influencing the decision-making about whether collecting data on sex is necessary or important. Our stakeholder experience with ONS regarding sex in census means it’s likely that no-one was considering or speaking up for the importance of accurate data on sex. The idea that sex should be replaced by gender identity has probably never been challenged within any of the working groups responsible for these changes, and it shows.

fairplayforwomen.com/how-does-the-nhs-record-data-about-sex/

This document demonstrates the determined sleuthing of FPFW and Dr Nic Williams's persistent badgering of statutory organisations to allow representation of the need to record biological sex in medical records to ensure patient safety.

NHS Connecting for Health Clinical Application and Patient Safety Project warned in 2009,

"This document describes the design guidance for the display and input of information about patient ‘Sex’ or ‘Current Gender’ status. It describes the area of focus, provides guidance and recommendations, and explains the rationale behind the guidance and recommendations.

The term ‘Gender’ is now considered too ambiguous to be desirable or safe because different locations and systems use it to mean different things. It is therefore desirable to use the two distinct terms ‘Sex’ and ‘Current Gender’.

webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/+/http:/www.isb.nhs.uk/use/baselines/sexdesign.pdf

This advice was over-ridden by advice and incorrect information from the LGBT Foundation and the transgender community.

=========

See also:

Sex, Gender & the NHS part 2: Your Medical Record and your Ladybrain

Anne Harper-Wright
13 Nov 2018

medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-bb86b0c3ebb

========

We can blame Stonewall for a lot of things but the total embuggeration of recording of biological sex in NHS Records is down to ideological interference by the LGBT Foundation based in Manchester:

LGBT FOUNDATION HISTORY

At LGBT Foundation we have a rich and passionate history of grassroots activism and community involvement, with a track record dating back to 1975.

As the needs of LGBT people have changed so have we, responding to an evolving landscape as well as to changes to health and support needs.

LGBT Foundation (and it’s predecessor The Lesbian & Gay Foundation) formed out of the merger of two community groups, both initially serving LGBT people in Manchester.

Manchester Lesbian & Gay Switchboard Services (MLGSS) began life 45 years ago, on 2 January 1975. Following the decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967, six gay men came together in a back bedroom to provide an information and support service for the growing number of men starting to come out. To this day, the Helpline remains a vital part of the Foundation’s work, delivered by both staff and trained volunteers.

In 1994, our current Chief Executive Paul Martin OBE became one of the founder members of Healthy Gay Manchester, having arrived in Manchester in 1989. The charity was formed in response to the HIV epidemic and was dedicated to improving sexual health amongst gay and bi men.

In April 2000 the two charities merged, becoming the the UK’s largest health and community charity for LGBT people, yet retained its community activism origins. In 2015 we became fully trans inclusive and changed our name to LGBT Foundation.

lgbt.foundation/about-us/our-history

Oh look! After messing up NHS records over many years the LGBT Foundation says next on our agenda is Trans Status Monitoring working with NHS Digital! How lovely!

lgbt.foundation/news/sexual-orientation-monitoring-if-were-not-counted-we-dont-count/126

They seem to have received quite a lot of funding from the NHS, not all for giving misleading advice and messing up the recording of sex in NHS Records of course:

lgbt.foundation/about-us/our-impact-accounts

=========

Meanwhile, Fair Play for Women relies entirely on Crowdfunding and personal donations!

"We receive no formal or government funding for the vital work we do. We rely completely on donations made by our supporters."

Same as all the other groups of women campaigning, researching and lobbying to protect women's rights, official recognition of the reality of biological sex and, in this case, patient safety in the NHS

(FFS!!! Angry)

TheWeeDonkey · 07/02/2022 15:20

Women's Bodies as Currency w/ Dr. Suzanne Vierling - www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4474544-Womens-Bodies-as-Currency-w-Dr-Suzanne-Vierling

I created this thread last night, I think this YouTube conversation really hits the nail on the head regarding the language used and the motivation behind it

Snugglepumpkin · 07/02/2022 15:12

Years ago I was one of a team of moderators who used to have to check a massive digital art gallery which permitted naked images as long as they didn't depict minors or abuse.

The amount of young boys who posted pictures of naked women with oversized lips & boobs who believed that women have their vulva on the front of their body not too far below the belly button was shocking.
I think they worked out the placement by guessing where the end of their erections would be & assuming biology revolved around that.
They were creating their 'art' with 3d models who are sold without genitals, then adding them on themselves where they thought they go.

However little you think the general population know about basic biology, it's less than that.

Not really surprising they don't know about the bits inside where you can't see them.

Datun · 07/02/2022 14:38

PurgatoryOfPotholes

Ah yes, rank hypocrisy running wild, I see.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 07/02/2022 14:09

If that tweet surprises you, cast an eye over this one, dated seven days before. "People who bleed" was absolutely fine, apparently!

Woman's hour 7th feb - pregnant people
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 07/02/2022 13:48

@Datun

Hi President Biden! Thank you so much for doing this. I'm wondering if you could adjust your wording from "women's healthcare" to "healthcare for people who get pregnant and bleed". I am a (trans) woman, but don't need these services. Thank you for your work!

It does make me wonder whether this type of biology denier would be happy being called a penis owner, ejaculator, testicle possessor, etc.

Would they be comfortable with us having a conversation in general, with them firmly in the prostate haver category?

As in this service/space excludes all prostate havers?

Well, J Yaniv didn't take kindly to it.

Calling trans women "this person with a prostate" is rude and offensive. Not myself, nor@nicespurlingshould take that kind of harassment. Completely disgraceful. #LGBTQ2 #LGBTQ

Woman's hour 7th feb - pregnant people
BoreOfWhabylon · 07/02/2022 13:35

@BaronMunchausen

The new priestly caste in Ireland has ordained that "people with a cervix" be intoned on official sites.

They add 'women' too, so at least it's only men who will be left wondering whether they should go for regular cervical screening.

Though the same site provides a prostate cancer guide for "men". because it's the leading cause of cancer in "men", and over 3,300 "men" are diagnosed with prostate cancer in Ireland each year.

No man will be left wondering if they have a prostate.

Yes, I do wish the point had been made on the programme that there seems to be no problem discussing men's health issues, like prostate cancer.
InvisibleDragon · 07/02/2022 13:33

This was one of the cases where changing your sex to your gender identity on medical records nearly resulted in tragedy:
www.bbc.com/future/article/20200814-why-our-medical-systems-are-ignoring-transgender-people
In Whitley’s case, the problem was how the severity of kidney disease is assessed. The usual protocol is to calculate a patient’s “estimated glomerular filtration rate” (eGFR), which measures the amount of a certain waste product in their blood and therefore shows how efficient their kidneys are at filtering it out. If the eGFR is below a certain level, it’s an indication that their kidneys are failing and they are eligible for a transplant.

There are several different lower limits for an eGFR, depending on things like a person’s weight, age, gender and race, which are intended to reflect the natural variation in the human body. Based on the female cut-off, he would have been allowed a transplant immediately. But he’s registered as a man on his medical records, and this meant his doctors used the male eGFR level. He wasn’t put on the list until he reached it – a decision that ultimately delayed the surgery by over a year, and very nearly cost him his life.

WarriorN · 07/02/2022 13:22

Figured it out - to open the supplementary files you have to click on the red button and download it.

It's a comprehensive collection of examples where sexed language was not used and so meaning was obfuscated. There are cases where sexed language from e.g. a conference presentation was made gender neutral for sharing on social media.

It's FUCKING OUTRAGEOUS.

Thanks for working it out.

And yes it's FUCKING OUTRAGEOUS.

OP posts:
Datun · 07/02/2022 13:17

Hi President Biden! Thank you so much for doing this. I'm wondering if you could adjust your wording from "women's healthcare" to "healthcare for people who get pregnant and bleed". I am a (trans) woman, but don't need these services. Thank you for your work!

It does make me wonder whether this type of biology denier would be happy being called a penis owner, ejaculator, testicle possessor, etc.

Would they be comfortable with us having a conversation in general, with them firmly in the prostate haver category?

As in this service/space excludes all prostate havers?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 07/02/2022 13:07

@FFSFFSFFS

I think what is missed is that it’s not actually about transmen’s feelings - it’s about transwomens feelings. Remember that Daniel Radcliffes outraged response to JK was that trans women are women. It’s all about men being upset at the “power” that pregnancy gives to women that they can’t have.
This.

I will never forget this exchange

President of the United States twitter account
Today, I issued a Presidential Memorandum to protect and expand access to reproductive health care. I am fully committed to protecting women’s health here at home and around the world.
www.twitter.com/POTUS/status/1354953657796722693?t=8GuV5HLuAqiSaL4XyJZ06A&s=19

Reply: Hi President Biden! Thank you so much for doing this. I'm wondering if you could adjust your wording from "women's healthcare" to "healthcare for people who get pregnant and bleed". I am a (trans) woman, but don't need these services. Thank you for your work!

Woman's hour 7th feb - pregnant people
ScrollingLeaves · 07/02/2022 12:47

Is it the same brilliant article as this which someone posted on Mumsnet on the thread ‘People with a Prostate’ back in January?

Frontiers | Effective Communication About Pregnancy, Birth, Lactation, Breastfeeding and Newborn Care: The Importance of Sexed Language | Global Women's Health

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2022.818856/full?fbclid=IwAR1GmMyg9yC58i3SargXSSpsw1NgaVoD6raB8cz40YuEgx9VxFTr5A4m4OQ%E2%80%9C

Plasmodesmata · 07/02/2022 12:35

I've taught year 7 reproduction - it's in science, so it's just the facts, labelling diagrams etc. and they do learn the names for cervix etc. And yes, there is a lot of shuffling of feet and mumbling of body parts.
They are not all able to retain this information for the rest of their life.

OvaHere · 07/02/2022 12:26

I think a lot of it is pushed by pro surrogacy lobbyists too. Much easier to push commercial surrogacy if women are nothing but disconnected body parts.

TheGreatATuin · 07/02/2022 12:23

My 12yo in year 7 is doing reproduction in class. He told me with a massive eye roll because everyone is apparently giggling and being "childish".
Although when I asked what sort of language they were using, there was a bit of foot shuffling and embarrassment on his side Grin (for the curious, it seems the school is giving them facts without the woo).
However, if that's the age that they're being shown the various parts of the reproductive system and half the class are giggling and the other half are staring at their feet in the pure embarrassment of being 12 and having a teacher talk about sex, then it doesn't really surprise me that the girls don't remember that particular bit by 18 if they haven't gone on to do more biology.

FrancescaContini · 07/02/2022 12:22

The researcher on the interview said that the sexed (aka correct biologically) language she used when presenting a paper at a conference was changed when transferred to Twitter to be non-sexed (aka “gender neutral” aka confusing) eg pregnant women became pregnant people etc.

I think that this change happened without her consent.

BaronMunchausen · 07/02/2022 12:15

The new priestly caste in Ireland has ordained that "people with a cervix" be intoned on official sites.

They add 'women' too, so at least it's only men who will be left wondering whether they should go for regular cervical screening.

Though the same site provides a prostate cancer guide for "men". because it's the leading cause of cancer in "men", and over 3,300 "men" are diagnosed with prostate cancer in Ireland each year.

No man will be left wondering if they have a prostate.

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