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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf

289 replies

ryzen · 03/08/2021 06:43

I thought we were making progress by getting rid of mixed wards. I'm really upset by this. Can I do anything?!

I am a victim of endless sexual abuse and harassment.

I have suffered very much for being female and being physically weaker than most males. I do not want to ever have to end up on a ward with one. I actually hide away now due to the attacks I have suffered in public. I never get a taxi alone. I plan my days around being home before dark.

In all honesty I do avoid men but I feel I should be able to if I want to especially with something as intimate as my healthcare. I've read a report in the times today that says if a female does not want to be next to a trans person then they should be treated as a racist would. I find it disgusting to even compare these scenarios.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
R0wantrees · 04/08/2021 11:15

NB "This letter is from cisgender NHS leaders who consider themselves trans & non-binary allies and has been supported by members of the Trans NHS Staff Network. (A network of over 160 trans & non-binary colleagues working across the NHS)"

R0wantrees · 04/08/2021 11:13

[quote Cattenberg]Just seen this on Twitter. It makes me feel sad that some NHS leaders flat out deny that there are situations where trans rights/self ID conflict with women’s rights.

docs.google.com/document/d/1Le7GtHyoxO0CqUIF03j92GqHlBqIH6JH8T5rz7GrXX0/mobilebasic[/quote]
The conflict is with the responsibility of NHS hospitals to Safeguard female patients and the Duty of Care that HCPs have to all patients. The positioning of the issue as 'conflict of rights' disregards the Safeguarding framework and best practice.

It should be a cause for concern that senior NHS employees including Associate Medical Director, Consultant, Foundation Trust Chair, Clinical Lead and Managers subscribe to an ideological belief that hinders making Safeguarding decisions based on sex. Particularly when they also refuse to discuss the consequences to female patients' welfare.

Document linked above,
'Open statement by NHS Leaders in support of and affirming our trans & non-binary service users, colleagues and wider community in light of the rising hostile environment they face.'
(extract)
"The Health Service Journal published an opinion piece some weeks ago by a former NHS chief executive. The piece calls for NHS Trusts to stop working with Stonewall, an LGBTQ+ organisation, citing a list of reasons, mainly centred around their position on not debating trans and non-binary rights. The piece goes on to also discuss what the author’s views are the dangers and risks the inclusion of trans and non-binary people pose to others.

Whilst we don’t want to address all of the points raised in this piece, there are a number of points we do feel in response it is important we make. These are:

   i.        Guidance as far back as 2008 was published by the Department of Health on including trans and non-binary people within single gender hospital spaces based on their gender identity not their sex assigned at birth, was not first mentioned in 2019.

  ii.        <strong>We believe no woman should be framed as a potential risk to others or have their ability to access care limited simply because of another protected characteristic they may hold (in this case being trans)</strong> and a care provider’s refusal to affirm their identity as a result.

 iii.        We believe trans women are women, trans men are men and non-binary people are non-binary, we respect and value the identities of people from all communities - trans and non-binary people are no different.

It would appear to us that the HSJ article is another example of framing one oppressed community against another in a debate without consideration for the potential harm or negative impact on the wellbeing of a community this may have.

The HSJ’s editor on social media said that he would welcome trans and non-binary people contacting him to “join the debate”.

But there is not a debate to be had in the NHS that sets one group’s rights in opposition to another’s." (continues)

Thelnebriati · 04/08/2021 10:54

The Head Of Public Participation And Engagement Olivia Butterworth blocked Jean Hatchett for talking about women's legal right to single sex wards.
That's an odd response for someone who's for inclusion.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3951102-nhs-england-head-of-public-participation-tells-survivors-to-stay-in-their-lane?msgid=97821249

R0wantrees · 04/08/2021 10:53

@DottyHarmer

I find it extraordinary that the Devon trust states that you should be admitted to a ward based on the gender you identify as at point of admission.

Do they really just accept someone’s say-so? Would they place any random bloke in a female ward because he requested it?

I can imagine that if someone is transferred from prison for treatment then a risk assessment would be carried out (cousin some while back saw Ian Huntley at her local hospital - luckily leg-cuffed) but a hospital won’t have the time/resources to check out every patient - and of course Stonewall are bleating that it’s discriminatory to be cautious about a man wanting to be on a female ward.

NHS hospitals don't have access or reason to do criminal convictions background checks on patients. What would be the outcome if they did?

The only circumstances where an offender's criminal convictions/status would be risk assessed is, as you say, during a transfer from prison (the patient is still in custody) and in some psychiatric settings where offending risk is linked to a patient's mental health condition and relevant to the care plan.

Both the existence of GRA 2004 and 'gender dysphoria' diagnosis require/expect that an individual "live in role" as the opposite sex/'gender identity'. The inevitable consequence of this is the expectation that hospitals "place any random bloke in a female ward because he requests it". Either NHS single sex accomodation is single sex and female accomodation (wards/showers/toilets) excludes all male patients or it is mixed sex by self-identification. The early documents make clear that included in the group of male patients covered by trans inclusive policies are 'cross dressers' (men who occasionally wear women's clothing for their sexual pleasure).

DottyHarmer · 04/08/2021 10:31

It means f* all when signatories have “inclusion” or “equality” in their job title. How many senior female nurses would sign this as opposed to someone sitting in an office (or at home) writing reams of waffle ?

Although if your job, nay career, depends upon it I’m sure most people would nod along and sign whatever claptrap is put in front of them. When it’s a case of “if you’re not with us you’re against us” the very best of us would regretfully reach for the pen.

Cattenberg · 04/08/2021 10:13

Just seen this on Twitter. It makes me feel sad that some NHS leaders flat out deny that there are situations where trans rights/self ID conflict with women’s rights.

docs.google.com/document/d/1Le7GtHyoxO0CqUIF03j92GqHlBqIH6JH8T5rz7GrXX0/mobilebasic

OldCrone · 04/08/2021 09:49

Do they really just accept someone’s say-so? Would they place any random bloke in a female ward because he requested it?

As long as he claims to 'live as' a woman, at least part of the time. That's what the guidelines say, and they've been in place since 2009.

... good practice requires that clinical responses be patient-centred, respectful and flexible towards all transgender people who ... live continuously or temporarily in the gender role that is opposite to their natal sex. General key points are that:
• Trans people should be accommodated according to their presentation: the way they dress, and the name and pronouns that they currently use.
• This may not always accord with the physical sex appearance of the chest or genitalia;
• It does not depend upon their having a gender recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change

See Annex E here:
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/200215/CNO_note_dh_098893.pdf

Archive link:
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20091105195026/www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/documents/digitalasset/dh_098893.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20091105195026/www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/documents/digitalasset/dh_098893.pdf

Tanith · 04/08/2021 09:40

How old are the patients on an adult ward these days?
I ask because I spent a terrifying week on a mixed sex adult ward in the 80s.
At 13, I was just a few months too old for the children’s ward.

Tesla73 · 04/08/2021 09:39

Jo Bartosch writes a good article on this on Spiked

www.spiked-online.com/2021/08/03/women-need-their-own-hospital-wards/

DottyHarmer · 04/08/2021 09:36

And it would take a brave member of staff to say, “ Nice try, don’t make me laugh” as even a raised eyebrow would find them before a disciplinary committee.

PronounssheRa · 04/08/2021 09:34

Do they really just accept someone’s say-so? Would they place any random bloke in a female ward because he requested it?

Yes and yes. Although on the latter, uttering the words 'I identify as a woman' might be needed.

DottyHarmer · 04/08/2021 09:34

I find it extraordinary and scary, really, that influence is being wielded at the highest levels. Can you imagine ten years ago being accused of being a bigot and threatened with no treatment if you objected to a man being in the next hospital bed?

Ten years ago Safeguarding was everything. And now it’s somehow come to pass that it’s synonymous with discrimination . Confused

Whatwouldscullydo · 04/08/2021 09:06

Thank youRowantreesas always a mine of information which is astonishing to read. However much we think we know, there’s always more. And this thread should be in AIBU as it is important for every single one of us

Mostly the threads get reported and moved.

No one wants to hear about it. They just call us transphobic

DottyHarmer · 04/08/2021 08:34

I find it extraordinary that the Devon trust states that you should be admitted to a ward based on the gender you identify as at point of admission.

Do they really just accept someone’s say-so? Would they place any random bloke in a female ward because he requested it?

I can imagine that if someone is transferred from prison for treatment then a risk assessment would be carried out (cousin some while back saw Ian Huntley at her local hospital - luckily leg-cuffed) but a hospital won’t have the time/resources to check out every patient - and of course Stonewall are bleating that it’s discriminatory to be cautious about a man wanting to be on a female ward.

R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 23:20

current thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4313843-Game-on-Sajid-Javid-bites

R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 21:36

Sajid Javid via Twitter

(Member of Parliament for Bromsgrove & Secretary of State for Health and Social Care)

"All patients, including women and transgender people, should feel comfortable and safe in hospital.

It's not wrong to look at whether guidance is right, or how it's being applied, to reassure everyone.

I’ve asked @DHSCgovuk for fresh advice."*

7:20 PM · Aug 3, 2021

twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1422623414196576256

Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf
ryzen · 03/08/2021 20:35

@SnoopyLights yes it's that article that made me a bit wtf.
Really quite shocked about how far this has gone however I've also learned way more than I ever imagined I would reading this thread.
It appears this has all been bubbling away for years.

But stopping women from speaking up about it all is terrible. For all the women who have fought for the rights we have/had?! things definitely appear to be heading in the wrong direction. Not in the direction I'd have hoped my young dd would be growing up in anyway.

OP posts:
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/08/2021 20:07

In the men’s I was frequently treated to the sight of penises deliberately allowed to fly free when I got anywhere near. I never had anything like this on the women’s ward. I think female nurses have to deal with this all the time.

Has any hospital trust ever considered a policy of withdrawing care from male patients who do this? Or are such hard lines only drawn when a woman objects to a biologically male patient in the next bed?

Comingoutfighting · 03/08/2021 20:04

This reply has been deleted

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SnoopyLights · 03/08/2021 20:02

The last two paragraphs of this article are shocking to me. How can a hospital trust advise nurses to chastise women who are concerned about sharing a space with male bodied people, when they are often vulnerable, medicated, immobile, and in a state of undress? And how dare they compare genuine concerns about physical safety to racism?

Male-born sex offenders who identify as women can be treated on female-only NHS wards after a risk assessment, some hospital trusts have told staff.

Devon, Oxford and Nottinghamshire hospitals have said that a criminal history should be part of an assessment when placing trans patients but that it should not prevent admission in all cases.

Some NHS trusts have issued guidance stating that people should be admitted to wards based on the gender they identify with and can choose which shower and lavatory facilities to use, according to The Daily Telegraph.

Oxford Health NHS Foundation Trust notes that the “risk of sexual offending in a trans context is very rare”, adding that where there is “significant risk” staff would “apply the same robust mitigation that we would to a non-trans patient to ensure a safe therapeutic environment”.

Dr Jane Hamlin, president of the Beaumont Society, a trans support group, said: “If anyone starts off with an assumption that a trans person is a sex offender — or even a potential sex offender — that is discrimination and transphobia. All patients, including trans people, should feel safe when in hospital.”

However, the policies have been put in place despite the Department of Health saying that hospitals should provide single-sex wards.

One nurse told the Telegraph that risk assessments of patients, including those with a known history of sexual offences, were not conducted because workloads were too high. “NHS wards are replicating what is happening in jails,” the nurse said.

Devon Partnership NHS Trust says that patients “will be admitted based on the gender which they identify as at the point of admission” and for legal reasons will not be based on physical characteristics or the person proving they have legally changed their gender or name.

Risk assessments must be carried out but it indicates that this does not necessarily prevent male-born sex offenders being placed on female-only wards.

The Oxford trust states that “if the service user has a sex-offending history, risk should be managed in the same way as it would be with any other client, irrespective of gender”.

It said its guidance “follows the legal parameters” and “sets out that every case is individually assessed, taking into account risk factors to the patient as well as other ward users”.

Nottinghamshire Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust guidance says that when deciding on the treatment setting “previous history of sexual offending and/or domestic violence or abuse should be taken into account”.

A spokesman for the Nottinghamshire trust added: “All our staff follow guidance to ensure the safety and dignity of our patients in line with government legislation, including carrying out a risk assessment to ensure they are given appropriate care.”

A spokesman for the Devon trust said that it was “a sensitive issue” and that it was reviewing the policy to ensure “the safety of our patients and staff”.

The Times reported last year that hospital guidance issued by NHS Greater Glasgow & Clyde that urged nurses to chastise women who object to sharing a ward with trans women had been put under review.

The health board advised staff to treat women who were uncomfortable about sleeping next to patients who appeared male as they would a racist who was worried about a black patient.

Comingoutfighting · 03/08/2021 19:56

This reply has been deleted

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R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 18:56

Vulvamort via Twitter

"In 2007, NHS meeting minutes show that what was once on all our medical records, SEX, was changed to become

"Person Gender (Current)"

From that point onwards, sex was replaced by gender."
twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1422512092519804930

UK Secretary of State for Health and Social Care

Patricia Hewitt 6 May 2005 28 June 2007 Labour
Alan Johnson 28 June 2007 5 June 2009 Labour
Andy Burnham 5 June 2009 11 May 2010 Labour
Andrew Lansley 11 May 2010 4 September 2012 Conservative
Jeremy Hunt 4 September 2012 8 January 2018 Conservative

Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf
R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 18:46

Vulvamort via Twitter

"These conversations about the difference between sex and gender in the NHS were so memorable that eight years later the Acting Chair of the NHS information standards board commented on meeting minutes that he would never forget the sex and gender conversations."

twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1422516182075248642

Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf
R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 18:42

Vulvamort via Twitter

"The NHS have been trying to untangle sex vs gender for a LONG time.

The government pushed them into this corner.

Minutes from a 2006 meeting below Down pointing backhand index

"The Chairman expressed concern over the use of sex and gender in the dataset commenting that the terms were used incorrectly"

twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1422509983342678018

Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf