Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf

I also feel very worried about this. The reality is that there have been a few examples of transwoman being accommodated in women only environments, where things have gone badly wrong eg ‘Karen’ White. No reason why a transwoman who has a GRC should be put on a male ward rather than female, but research suggests the vast majority of transwomen retain their penises and 60% identify as lesbian. Given that people in hospital are particularly vulnerable, I don’t think a transwoman self-identifying as a woman with convictions for sex offences against women or children should ever be on a female ward. But what also really concerns me is the way that discussion over the issue is just closed down, except in the traditionally conservative media. It seems like the pro-trans activists are allowed to pour hate and threats at women, but if women dare to suggest that transwomen should not have access to protected spaces for women, they are completely shut down and trolled to death. What has happened to free speech?

This is fucking disgusting.

Debbie Hayton via Twitter
"By me for @TheCriticMag : "I don’t think exceptions should be made. Not for me; not for anyone. It’s because we have made exceptions that we have got into this mess. That said, I have not always thought this way.""
twitter.com/DebbieHayton/status/1422937732976873474

(extract from linked article)
"But staying out of the women’s does not necessitate sharing with men. There are alternatives; the last time I was in hospital, I was assigned to a private bay. I certainly didn’t feel discriminated against — rather I felt I had been treated more favourably because I was transsexual."
[Hmm]

Dr Hayton has been open that his 'transition' was driven by an escalation of behaviours associated with autogynephillia (article below). I do not think NHS should be required/encouraged to make an exception that male patients with AGP who chose to have cosmetic surgery should be allocated single rooms as a priority.

quillette.com/2020/02/02/i-may-have-gender-dysphoria-but-i-still-prefer-to-base-my-life-on-biology-not-fantasy/

previous threads
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605090-Boundaries-and-Allies

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4303993-posie-parker-s-latest-glasgow

totally agree - theres alot of want and take in this issue and no give whatsoever.

On all areas of this issue it boils down to "we dont feel safe being ourselves around men so as women are the 'fairer sex' lets go there" - it should be that if you dont feel safe being yourself around men then get men to change their attitude.

It is certainly (in this case) about middle class male patients' demands for private rooms. I do not believe the basis of this on the basis of safety alongside other male patients. There is, something rather distasteful in the timing of the article.

The demand continues to be for validation, first as 'women' and now 'not like the other men'. It takes quite a level of selfish entitlement to presume that regardless of specialist NHS ward, Dr Hayton et al should expect to have the private room. There are many patients who have particular need of these, including those who are critically ill.
I wonder if Hayton's Labour and Union credentials prevent him taking out a private medical inurance scheme, this would likely accomodate him in the manner he expects.

@R0wantrees totally agree - theres alot of want and take in this issue and no give whatsoever.

On all areas of this issue it boils down to "we dont feel safe being ourselves around men so as women are the 'fairer sex' lets go there" - it should be that if you dont feel safe being yourself around men then get men to change their attitude.

Alot of time and money is being spent unravelling the conditioning of children and women to accept all this when it would be better spent unravelling the male conditioning. Something as basic as t-shirts sold for kids sums it up really: Boys will be Boys and the girls ones are Be Kind.

Imagine if Stonewall had spent the last few years campaigning for 3rd spaces or pushing for men to accept trans and "educate themselves" instead of women having to. How different it would be if male celebs were to use their platforms to tell men to change their ways but instead so same celebs use their platforms to virtual signal and shout down women.

The fact that none of the above is on the agenda shows this movements true colours and intentions

[quote Tesla73]Debbie Hayton has written for The Critic on this subject here

thecritic.co.uk/no-exceptions-for-single-sex-wards/[/quote]
Dr Hayton is making a predictable push for private rooms for male patients such as himself. The NHS does not have capacity to provide all male patients who do not identify as men private rooms.

from article above
(extract)
"I started my own campaign against GRA reform in 2016. But my focus was the rights of transsexuals. I thought we had a good deal, and I did not want to lose it. In November 2016, I wrote,

“The proposed law might require people in official positions to take trans people at their word, but it cannot regulate social groups that create their own boundaries. Transwomen in particular may find that goodwill is replaced by suspicion should abusive men spot an opportunity to exploit women’s spaces and protections.”

Looking back, I do take pride in my prophecy, but I am embarrassed by the focus on myself. I had yet to appreciate the devastating impact of this ideology on children, nor was I aware of the liberties that I had been taking." (continues)

But where they are segregated, we need to respect women’s dignity, and their need for privacy. If women and girls have been promised a single-sex space, they deserve to have a single-sex space.

But staying out of the women’s does not necessitate sharing with men. There are alternatives; the last time I was in hospital, I was assigned to a private bay. I certainly didn’t feel discriminated against — rather I felt I had been treated more favourably because I was transsexual." (continues)

Cf Yesterday's Daily Mail, in which Baroness Emma Nicholson wrote,

"And it is women who are paying the price. As a woman who has spent a great deal of her adult career campaigning for the rights of women and children, I approached colleagues to form an all-party campaign group to collect evidence from patients and medics on the impact of the deviation from single-sex spaces.

The examples we have received are legion.

In hundreds of emails and hours of personal testimony, we have heard cases ranging from dementia patients distressed at waking up next to someone who, in their mind, looks like a man, to reports of a rape on a psychiatric unit undertaken by a biological male who identified as a woman."
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9857821/BARONESS-NICHOLSON-fear-sanctity-single-sex-wards-threat-trans-rights.html

My concern is that Savid Jarvis knows trouble is brewing and he's simply trying to push women back in their box until it's all blown over by pretending to appease women with a 'we're thinking about it' status. Such little faith I have

Yep. Tbh I have no time fir this stuff any more. They all know. We have written to mps akd been ignored etc repeatedly. Or told there's no conflict We are then supoosed to be grateful when they have some epiphany and apparently see the problem. Except any solution they propose is nothing but crumbs and they refuse to define to define terms so its all just meaningless.

Debbie Hayton has written for The Critic on this subject here

thecritic.co.uk/no-exceptions-for-single-sex-wards/

I hope Javid gets advice from proper women's groups too not just Stonewall, GIRES and their puppets.

I don’t know if this news has already found it’s way here:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/03/health-secretary-intervenes-nhs-issues-guidance-transgender/
Not the first time Sajid Javid has appeared to support women and girls. Although he’s only ‘investigating’, yet. I’m glad someone has some sense. It is scary how much has deserted the middle class professions - schools and what’s left of libraries have gone too. Beliefs and ‘being kind’ to everyone except poorer groups and women trumping fact as specific social groups take power in these most important professions.

I've been working on some of this for the last couple of years Datun, but more at a local level. I've had to be quite careful about how I've approached it and now changes are starting to happen, which is good, but there's still a lot to undo. I'm currently manoeuvring myself into a slightly different position within the workforce, which will also (hopefully) help me to effect further changes. It has certainly been a 'marathon and not a race' approach, all whilst making sure I don't get fired (Maya's case has strengthened my resolve now though).

I don't tweet, but I'll have a look at link, thank you. I'm never entirely sure I have much to contribute so I stick to what I know, and what I can do; my thoughts are that there are many of us participating in small acts and they all add up.

Has anyone (nurse for example) done a NHS safeguarding or equality course recently?

They all seem to be online. You get an instant pass/fail. And any "gender" questions have "right" answers that allow no nuance.

So unless you toe the line, you fail. Full stop. There isn't even a comment box to suggest better worded questions. So there is no way an ordinary member of staff can not go along with this.

Unfortunately the result is usually it get moves though. It's infuriating. Seems everyone wants the benefit of what feminists fight for but none of the "guilt by association "

Also incredibly infuriating that the blame for not speaking up usually falls on feminists even though they have been sabotaged, blocked, fired, spoken to by the police every step of the way.

ii. We believe no woman should be framed as a potential risk to others or have their ability to access care limited simply because of another protected characteristic they may hold (in this case being trans) and a care provider’s refusal to affirm their identity as a result.

The 'limits' to care are due to patients and HCPs' sex rather than 'trans' status, specifically that they are male and in circumstances where female patients or staff are vulnerable. The 'limits' being that all male patients and staff, regardless of their 'gender identity' should be excluded and/or chaperoned where single sex Safeguards are in place. There should be no detriment to male patients and HCPs being treated as other male patients and HCPs who do not have a gender identity or identify as 'cisgender'.

ii. We believe no woman should be framed as a potential risk to others or have their ability to access care limited simply because of another protected characteristic they may hold (in this case being trans) and a care provider’s refusal to affirm their identity as a result.

Haven't they also said that women who don't subscribe to their belief system (that TWAW) can have their access to care limited? The belief that humans can't change sex is also protected in law. Have they forgotten that? And isn't it already the case that women who feel unable to share a hospital ward with a male-bodied person for whatever reason are being denied care?

They seem to believe that there is a hierarchy of rights and protected characteristics, in which 'gender reassignment' (regardless of whether any physical reassignment has actually taken place) is more important than sex, and the belief that TWAW is more important than any religious beliefs held. Women who do not believe that people can change sex are are labelled 'transphobic' and their human rights can be denied because they are considered to be barely human.

Nobody is suggesting that trans people shouldn't have a right to medical care. Just that they shouldn't have access to hospital wards which are supposed to be for people of the opposite sex.

And do these beliefs override patients beliefs?

How does this cater to muslim patients? jehovahs witnesses, women in hospital due to domestic assault etc?

I see Baroness Nicholson has raised this as a concern in the (sorry) Daily Mail. It came though our coms office.

What other beliefs do the NHS require people to hold in order to access health care?

Why on earth have they issued a statement about their beliefs?

Feel free to hold those beliefs, but imposing an ideology on an organisation and forcing those who pay your salary and who are sick and vulnerable to accept it under threat of withheld treatment or calling the police is many steps too far.

It's time there was a widespread cull of these so-called "diversity" and "inclusion" roles. They don't do what they say on the tin - instead they represent very narrow perspectives and actively include large sections of the population.

'Open statement by NHS Leaders
We believe trans women are women

This is self ID