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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

643 replies

Ziegfeld · 24/07/2021 19:27

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

OP posts:
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Helleofabore · 28/07/2021 17:24

QueenPeary

That is what I love about this board. Women will actually go the extra mile and check out whether some bonkers assertion has any validity. Thank you QueenPeary, and thank you all for your continued efforts of providing well reasoned posts.

Ultimatecougar · 28/07/2021 17:17

Well all those people judging my anecdote - where do the likes of Tommy Robinson (and the racist tabloids) get their support? They certainly isn't appealing to the middle classes. Not that middle classes can't be racist, but it's more subtle.

It is probably different in London and other areas with more diversity, but there are a lot of white working class areas where it's fairly unusual to be from a non white background and these tend to be areas where there is more prejudice.

RedToothBrush · 28/07/2021 16:28

[quote Ultimatecougar]**@dyslek* @TrainedByCats* it's not ignorance, I come from a working class white background and many of my relatives and people I went to school with are racist, homophobic and sexist. It's extremely common in majority white working class areas.

I'm not talking "I have a black friend but" racism, I'm talking straight out "I am a racist and I don't care" Tommy Robinson supporters.

They are also not keen on trans people, as you might expect.

I'm not speculating. I know these people. I'm related to some of them and their views are extremely common.[/quote]
Oh look an anecdote.

Woot.

Yes all the people i know are green aliens with tentacles.

Obviously your anecdote is highly representative and not at all pre-judged nonsense and stereotyping of the working class. Cos you know better than every other fucker.

Deliriumoftheendless · 28/07/2021 16:23

Maybe some of these posters haven’t twigged Hollyoaks isn’t a documentary.

ScreamingMeMe · 28/07/2021 16:21

[quote Ultimatecougar]**@dyslek* @TrainedByCats* it's not ignorance, I come from a working class white background and many of my relatives and people I went to school with are racist, homophobic and sexist. It's extremely common in majority white working class areas.

I'm not talking "I have a black friend but" racism, I'm talking straight out "I am a racist and I don't care" Tommy Robinson supporters.

They are also not keen on trans people, as you might expect.

I'm not speculating. I know these people. I'm related to some of them and their views are extremely common.[/quote]
I'm also from a white working class background and I don't recognise this at all. Maybe you just know some shit people.

Keepemguessing · 28/07/2021 15:59

@Deliriumoftheendless

Please provide links to these women beating up transwomen or else it looks like bullshit.
I call bullshit. No answer to my request either.
Ultimatecougar · 28/07/2021 15:52

@dyslek @TrainedByCats it's not ignorance, I come from a working class white background and many of my relatives and people I went to school with are racist, homophobic and sexist. It's extremely common in majority white working class areas.

I'm not talking "I have a black friend but" racism, I'm talking straight out "I am a racist and I don't care" Tommy Robinson supporters.

They are also not keen on trans people, as you might expect.

I'm not speculating. I know these people. I'm related to some of them and their views are extremely common.

Deliriumoftheendless · 28/07/2021 15:31

Please provide links to these women beating up transwomen or else it looks like bullshit.

QueenPeary · 28/07/2021 15:23

OMG that [pink t-shirts argument is the bottom of the barrel, it really is.

Why do you think there's an unusually high rate of suddenly realising you're a TW among convicted male sex offenders? Are they the non-pink-wearing macho types you mean? Because they don't seem to mind?

As an aside I just googled the first three predatory men that came to mind, Jimmy Savile, Rolf Harris and Peter Sutcliffe. Found all of them in pink within seconds.

Yes predatory men do wear pink. Yes predatory men absolutely would use "being trans" as a cover if it allowed them access to victims. Have you met predatory men?

And remember, they don't even have to wear anything in particular, They can just say they are women to get access to previously safe spaces for women and children.

dyslek · 28/07/2021 15:10

@Ultimatecougar

Many working class people are very scathing of any "looney left" nonsense which includes Trans rights. Unfortunately they are often just as scathing about racial, sexual issues and especially in the older generation are still quite homophobic.
Ignorance in action. Working class people have been working and living and mixing with all the people who have come here when their middle class counterparts were still worrying about the house prices going down. Please dont add class predjuice to the misogny, homophobia and racism of gender idology, that would be just too depressing.
Helleofabore · 28/07/2021 15:02

Really, think of that: predatory sorts of men are generally the sorts who won't even wear pink tee shirts for the 'shame of it'.

I would love to understand why you would think this? This is a huge exercise in 'stereotyping' that you are engaging in. All to dismiss women's voiced concerns. And again, imagine if safeguarding was based on whether you went through a male's wardrobe.... yep.. you are all clear, no pink tee shirts here!!

Wow! success! you have simply made those safeguarding checks quick and simple. Well done!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/07/2021 14:41

And again, it's a shit argument.

All TRA arguments for why some males should be treated as women are based on special pleading and are pretty shit, but it doesn't appear to hold them back from making them?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/07/2021 14:38

Really, think of that: predatory sorts of men are generally the sorts who won't even wear pink tee shirts for the 'shame of it'.

Don't be ridiculous. Not all men who prey on women are stereotypical homophobes as well as predating on women. This is a cliche of the "macho man". Some abusive men have in the past called themselves "male feminists".

ScreamingMeMe · 28/07/2021 14:34

Frankly, if you really want transwomen to be kept out of women's toilets, your best bet isn't the law, it's to rely on transphobic women - because cases of women beating up transwomen in women's toilets are somewhat less rare than the reverse. That's perhaps why transwomen avoid using public toilets for men or women as much as they possibly can.

I'd love to see your evidence for this claim.

Here's some of ours:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

And once again a TRA:

Reduces the argument to toilets. What about sports, refuges, changing rooms, etc?

Implies that men wouldn't go to the trouble of "dressing like a woman" - when men have gone to far more effort than simply wearing clothes to access victims. (And how transphobic of you to assume a man would have to wear a dress and makeup - "transwomen don't owe you femininity". )

Tries to make out that women are the agressors. Against the sex that is generally bigger and stronger than them. NOPE.

Displays zero understanding of safeguarding, or doesn't give a crap about it.

MellieBellie · 28/07/2021 14:03

Yesindeedydoodey

"Predators are like that. ;)"

Why the wink? Do you find this a lighthearted or amusing topic?

TrainedByCats · 28/07/2021 13:57

@Ultimatecougar

Many working class people are very scathing of any "looney left" nonsense which includes Trans rights. Unfortunately they are often just as scathing about racial, sexual issues and especially in the older generation are still quite homophobic.
That’s quite offensive, many working class families have more of a racial mix than i’ve observed in middle class families
R0wantrees · 28/07/2021 13:50

If those males acknowledged that they are indeed males, and respected females by not accessing single sex spaces set up for safeguarding purposes.

If male people are unable/unwilling to acknowledge their sex and respect sex-based Safeguards, women and girls boundaries and/or the importance of consent then a range of measures are available to address this and should be employed.
This is the basic principle Safeguarding, the responsibility to recognise and identify the nature of specific risk/s and then to take measures to mitigate. Recognition of the fact that risk can not of course be entirely eradicated is never a basis for failing to adopt appropriate steps to mitigate.

Ultimatecougar · 28/07/2021 13:46

Many working class people are very scathing of any "looney left" nonsense which includes Trans rights. Unfortunately they are often just as scathing about racial, sexual issues and especially in the older generation are still quite homophobic.

RedToothBrush · 28/07/2021 13:44

@Yesindeedydoodey

" And again, it's a shit argument. If a burglar is determined to burgle my house they probably can. If a murderer is determined to kill me they probably can. Does that mean we should therefore give up all laws against these things, security and measures to protect ourselves? No."

Fine - make the laws against transwomen using women's bathrooms even stronger, then. Make them as strong as you like. In reality, they won't make a bit of difference, will they? Attacks by transwomen in women's toilets are a vanishingly rare occurrence and nobody can think of a sensible way of policing it.

The law doesn't like to be made to look like an ass, though. Those involved in making it try to be careful in that way. Thus there isn't a law against, say, leopards using women's toilets, on account of leopards very rarely break into women's toilets (in the UK, anyway) and even if they did, the law could do nothing to stop it. Predators are like that. ;)

I think some common sense and realism needs urgently to be injected into this (largely non-) issue. We're being asked to think of a predatory sort of man deliberately dressing up in women's clothing, with a wig and some make up too, presumably, for some reason believing that a women's toilet is the best place to target women. Really, think of that: predatory sorts of men are generally the sorts who won't even wear pink tee shirts for the 'shame of it'.

But OK, let's assume there are such men. We're thinking of a daylight toilet attack, since we could assume that at night, when there are very few people around, and the toilet in question is one of the few that's unlocked at night, there'd be no need for a man to disguise himself as a woman. So: there's this man, dressed as a woman, who attacks a woman in a women's toilet ... and assumes his disguise won't be noted and reported ... and the police won't be able to pick him out in a crowd as he runs off afterwards (hopefully for his sake not in heels)?

No, I don't think so. I'm not a predatory man but if I were ... to be honest, I actually can't think of sillier way of doing my preying on women.

Frankly, if you really want transwomen to be kept out of women's toilets, your best bet isn't the law, it's to rely on transphobic women - because cases of women beating up transwomen in women's toilets are somewhat less rare than the reverse. That's perhaps why transwomen avoid using public toilets for men or women as much as they possibly can.

And what of women's dignity? And religious beliefs? And simply not wanting to see dicks because they have had traumatic experiences?

Its ok for women to be offended and triggered but not transwomen....

... Why is that?

Helleofabore · 28/07/2021 13:40

@R0wantrees

I think some common sense and realism needs urgently to be injected into this

I agree, we should stop pretending that we don't know what sex is and that adult humans are either women or men. Also that a female sex based service or space should obviously exclude male people and that sex-based Safeguarding should be upheld to the same level and to the same level of clarity as other legislation and/or policies.

Yes, wouldn't that be nice.

If those males acknowledged that they are indeed males, and respected females by not accessing single sex spaces set up for safeguarding purposes.

Helleofabore · 28/07/2021 13:38

Frankly, if you really want transwomen to be kept out of women's toilets, your best bet isn't the law, it's to rely on transphobic women - because cases of women beating up transwomen in women's toilets are somewhat less rare than the reverse. That's perhaps why transwomen avoid using public toilets for men or women as much as they possibly can.

Still pushing the 'women do it too' angle I see.

Have we covered off the 'but the males who identify as women will simply keep using them' point yet? The one that basically states that those males have no respect for women or laws or social mores despite stating that they just want to pee. That is always an interesting one to see. Some prominent activists push that particular point at lot.

Ziegfeld · 28/07/2021 13:30

@Yesindeedydoodey

I suspect you are deliberately misreading what people are saying here but the worry is NOT about would be male miscreants going to the trouble of putting on wigs to gain access to women’s spaces. It’s about effectively removing all boundaries to women’s spaces through self ID. What my friend (who is pro self ID) says he wants is gender neutral facilities - which is a logical outcome if you allow anyone to identify as anything to go anywhere. So there would be no safe spaces at all for women - or TW for that matter.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 28/07/2021 13:19

**identifiable

Blush
R0wantrees · 28/07/2021 13:08

Really, think of that: predatory sorts of men are generally the sorts who won't even wear pink tee shirts for the 'shame of it'.

Predatory abusive men will go to considerable lengths to embed themselves in any situation where they have access to to their intended targets be they children, women or Vulnerable Adults. The idea that there is a predatory men are a type, identifyable by their T shirt choices is incredibly naive.

I would urge anyone holding such opinions to spend some time reading the evidence from the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse to recognise and respect the backgrounds and modus operandi of predatory abusers.

www.iicsa.org.uk/

LangCleg wrote Thu 21-Feb-19

"How did the scandal of TV entertainers grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

How did the scandal of Catholic priests grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

How did the scandal of on-street gangs grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

Because if you create a sacred caste of any group and silence anyone asking questions about individuals on behalf of the sacred caste, abusers will see, infiltrate, and groom and exploit children. That''s how."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3512177-Julia-Long-asking-Munro-Bergdorf-about-child-exploitation?pg=12

Keepemguessing · 28/07/2021 13:03

because cases of women beating up transwomen in women's toilets are somewhat less rare than the reverse

Do you have evidence of assaults on TW in women's toilets?