The Guardian have upped their game, we’re now Anti-trans for asking for same-sex spaces

Mishi never acknowledges it when they are (continuously) proved wrong.
They just wait until a new thread is created then jump on and say the same embarrassing, factually incorrect, bullshit, over and over again.

American facilities are pretty good with CCTV

In changing rooms??

women carrying signs reading “protect female spaces” and “It’s worse in women’s shelters” marched alongside men wearing helmets and masks that covered their faces

From the article. How on EARTH did the writer know that the people carrying signs were women and the people wearing helmets were men?

Sounds a wee bit of a transphobic assumption to make...

If there was an incident, then a police report and charges can be laid. American facilities are pretty good with CCTV, so shouldn't be hard to catch the "Perp" if they existed. So far..... well nothing, it seems.

Why don't you ever acknowledge you are wrong, Mishy? Why do you bring up the same incorrect points over and over? Why don't you read what people write?

Mishy's argument is basically 'why were the police not called to this incident? See, it probably didn't happen' (never mind that the behaviour was legal locally) AND 'It's perfectly ok for bepenised people to be in female spaces because they won't want to show anyone their penises' (never mind that this individual certainly did, & was in a fully nude space).

FFS, pick one horse to ride at a time.

I'm sure we used to get a better class of TRA than this. At least that jj one was occasionally intentionally funny...

[quote nauticant]Translate: Be kind to sex offenders or else.

This in today's Sunday Times shows where that gets you:

archive.fo/fvKRK[/quote]
That's an appalling story, @nauticant. Thanks for the link to the archived version. Deserves its own thread.

This is a shockingly poor piece of journalism. It is of course from the US team - I like to think that, abysmal as it is, the UK paper wouldn't publish something this biased.

Glinner's latest Substack draws attention to one of the tweets embedded in the article from Lois Beckett herself, where she says "Just got thrown to the ground by a group of right-wing anti-paedophile protesters."

Those damn right-wingers, protesting about paedophiles...

Run @allmywhat, run!

More seriously, I've seen people new to this debate come on to the Feminism boards to say 'why don't we have third spaces, that would solve all the problems!' and regulars saying 'well yes, that's what we've been saying all along'. And then we're told that only extremist TRA's take the view that it's 'othering' and 'transphobic' so we should be feministing better. It's tiring.

trans people should be treated with respect and dignity without compromising safeguarding

Third spaces then? I agree, that's this time wasting dangerous bullshit all sorted out in three words... wait, why is this angry horde of green haired people with pitchforks coming after me?

trans people should be treated with respect and dignity without compromising safeguarding

Do let us go over these things again and again Mishy, for any interested lurkers. Sunlight is good.

If a man or anyone seeks to abuse women and children, there is little stopping them entering a toilet or changing room now.

It strikes me that this disingenuous argument is another example of TRAs thinking women are NPCs with no agency or inner life. There's quite a lot women can do to get rid of a man who comes into a women's changing room if he's not allowed to be there, ranging from yelling at him to calling the management or even the police, to ganging up together to shame him out of there.

None of those options exist any more if the man is allowed to be there, or even worse, could have you charged with a hate crime for saying he isn't allowed to be there and calling the police on him.

But I think the TRAs genuinely don't understand that we're people so they don't understand that women don't just stand around dumbly waiting to be assaulted when an obviously dangerous man enters our space.

Mishy
If a man or anyone seeks to abuse women and children, there is little stopping them entering a toilet or changing room now.

Why would they put a dress on and pretend to be trans to commit a crime?

If anyone, of whatever gender or sex commits a crime or abuse, they can be challenged and brought to justice. Creating fear over trans and other minorities because they are different is just so wrong in my opinion.

^^
This is completely wrong. Studies clearly show that women and children encounter much higher levels of sexual abuse in spaces where there are male bodies. Unisex spaces time and time again show higher rates of assault. In fact around 90% of changing room complaints around sexual assault, harassment or voyeurism take place in unisex facilities.

Interestingly 41% of male bodied transwomen in prison are registered sex offenders. Some sex offenders start transition in prison.

There is very little justice for women and children who are abused, the statistics show that almost 1% of reported rapes are prosecuted in England and Wales.

If a man or anyone seeks to abuse women and children, there is little stopping them entering a toilet or changing room now.

Yes. We know. That is what we are protesting about. Do keep up!

Sam Levin again there I see. Has form for presenting editorialising as reporting.

As Helen Joyce points out, this kind of reporting helps no-one.

What’s the point of sending reporters to ‘fly over America’ to find out why people won’t vote Democrat if you can’t be bothered to report accurately on what people think in California?

“Existing in public spaces” apart from smiting it’s such embarrassingly juvenile writing! Unless sam has discovered physics of which im unaware, people exist in public spaces by dint of being a mass occupying space & time

Trans ppl don’t suddenly become invisible if people don’t give them what they want

Interesting R0wan and they keep calling their journalism independent and this from their website Our independent ownership structure means we are entirely free from political and commercial influence. Only our values determine the stories we choose to cover – relentlessly and courageously. mmmmmmm

[quote R0wantrees]November 2018 relevant thread discussing US Guardian employees' reaction to Guardian editorial:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3412692-The-Guardians-US-Staff-are-Revolting

Guardian US Opinion,
'Why we take issue with the Guardian’s stance on trans rights in the UK'
by Sam Levin, Mona Chalabi and Sabrina Siddiqui

"A recent editorial on the Gender Recognition Act in the UK was met with dismay by Guardian US journalists who believe it advanced transphobic viewpoints that are driving attacks on trans rights in America"
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/02/guardian-editorial-response-transgender-rights-uk

In response to the editorial,
'The Guardian view on the Gender Recognition Act: where rights collide'

"It should be possible to advance trans equality without harming the interests of women. But a toxic debate has made it harder"

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/17/the-guardian-view-on-the-gender-recognition-act-where-rights-collide[/quote]
Sam Levin again there I see. Has form for presenting editorialising as reporting.

“...a policy that could cost lives and prevent millions of Americans from existing in public spaces”

"Why would they put a dress on and pretend to be trans to commit a crime?"

Being trans or pretending to be trans is completely irrelevant. There is no objective definition of trans. All that is suggested is that people should use facilities where they feel most comfortable, regardless of sex.

It’s surprising that you seem to visit this board regularly but haven’t realised that your definition of trans has been rendered obsolete.

How can safeguarding be inclusive if, by definition, it includes sexual offenders? To be inclusive you include everyone or you exclude people. It can't be Schrodinger's safeguarding.

Quite. Just like Schrodingers penis - it wasn't there because that would be a police incident and they wouldn't be able to get away with it, but simultaneously it was and you shouldn't be looking, and it's completely fine for it to be there, bigot.

Ereshkigalangcleg
I can't remember the specifics of the straw that broke the camel's back for me in 2018 but I phoned through and the person I spoke to recorded the reasons for my cancelled subscription. She was also interested to know that I had (for the first time ever) taken subscriptions for The Times and Spectator purely for their more balanced/accurate reporting of the implications of proposed changes to the GRA.

MishyJDI's post can always be relied on to miss the point. It's as reliable as the sun rising in the east and setting in the west.

It's a lame attempt to deflect from the point.

No, What I am against is prejudice. If there was an incident, then a police report and charges can be laid. American facilities are pretty good with CCTV, so shouldn't be hard to catch the "Perp" if they existed. So far..... well nothing, it seems.

That would be because a male getting their penis out in a spa with naked women and girls is legal in California as long as they say they are a woman too. So no police incident. It's really quite desperate, Mishy. I'm embarrassed for you.

Mumsnet is the home of the #believeher campaign. We believe women when they say they have been sexually assaulted or sexually harassed.

Great post R0wan
The loss of the Graun to pseudo journalism is so sad (wouldn't stuff my shoes with it now but it was my paper for thirty years)

When I stopped mine (after buying the paper regularly for over twenty year) the person who recorded my reasons commented that many women had raised similar issues.

That's interesting.