Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner interviews Jess Philips in the Times

132 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/07/2021 09:44

Interesting read:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d8851824-e3c1-11eb-afdb-c7b01afbcfc5?shareToken=aab7b7c1ae6d3cef2a3097ebc6dfec5b

Excerpts:

She says her greatest achievement is “making women as important as bins”. Councils only had only two statutory duties: adult and children’s social services, and refuse collection. The Domestic Abuse Act adds a third: providing women’s refuges.

What surprised her when sitting on the women and equalities committee, which discussed Gender Recognition Act reforms, was the requirement of two years living “in role” as the opposite sex before changing a birth certificate. “How do you live in role as a man? Have I got to use a spanner? No one could answer that. I’ve got short hair. I’m wearing trousers. Like, it’s not an act, is it? You can’t act like a woman, because we’re all different.”

She is aghast that the modern left seeks to legitimise, even idealise, prostitution, which through her long experience in the refuge movement she sees as sexual abuse. She uses the term “prostituted women” rather than the woke euphemism “sex workers”. Moreover, she’s long been concerned about long-standing women’s refuges losing funds in favour of generic services that purport to include everyone. “If you had £1 million for domestic violence services, you’d give £800,000 to a women’s refuge based on need and numbers. Having specialist services for LGBT or male victims of domestic abuse is totally brilliant and legitimate. They’re not the same. They need different services.”

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
TinselAngel · 20/07/2021 09:11

send them to an exotic location
Please can I go?

Masdintle · 19/07/2021 18:52

Redapplewreath can I carry the bags for that jaunt Grin

TinselAngel · 19/07/2021 18:23

Well of course they don't Empress! Smile

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 19/07/2021 17:55

@TinselAngel

Sorry 4 actually- and two of them have gone on to write hit pieces on their websites about Trans Widows Voices.
I bet they get nowhere near as many visits to their sites as Trans Widows Voices does.
TinselAngel · 19/07/2021 17:12

Sorry 4 actually- and two of them have gone on to write hit pieces on their websites about Trans Widows Voices.

TinselAngel · 19/07/2021 17:11

Sorry Tinsel what I meant was, as far as I know everything about APG has been a link. I personally am unaware of anyone with APG posting directly on here (I bloody well hope not).

Well there's at least 3 that post here under their own name for a start so I'm a bit flabbergasted you've never noticed.

Redapplewreath · 19/07/2021 17:10

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

Hayton has been asked, many times, on this forum alone, to say whether they now disagree with the guidelines they wrote

I was eventually more gratified than I should have been that Prof Wintermute had undergone a semi-damascene conversion on the omission of women's perspective from the Yogakarta Principles.

However - I could stand to learn a lot more about what he's actively doing to lobby his fellow signatories to undo this harm. (I know he's a trustee of LGB Alliance. I feel the damage from Yogakarta needs to be unpicked.)

I think the time is here to assemble a group of brilliant women - I nominate Datun and Reddogs and JKR and the Baroness and Joanna Cherry straight off the top of my head - send them to an exotic location with a good name to make it sound suitably impressive, and they can spend a few days coming up with principles for women's rights that can be handed down to international governments. Let's balance the books a bit.
Datun · 19/07/2021 17:00

@highame

Being able to say look, even this transwoman agrees with us! I hope neither I, nor anyone else said that. I just think the more people in this debate the more I become sure we are right. I like some of the stuff Hayton writes but I have also learned from this thread alone one or two things I didn't know and that has added to my knowledge.

Sorry Tinsel what I meant was, as far as I know everything about APG has been a link. I personally am unaware of anyone with APG posting directly on here (I bloody well hope not).

It's too hot

I'm not suggesting you said it. I am saying that there are certainly people who think it is strategic to have transwomen support gender critical feminism.

Whereas I disagree. Unless they are no longer trans.

The cornerstone of transgenderism relies on women being demoted from a biological reality, to an identity for men. It's sexism.

There is no way you can have a foot in both camps. They are diametrically opposed.

Thelnebriati · 19/07/2021 16:31

@highame

Being able to say look, even this transwoman agrees with us! I hope neither I, nor anyone else said that. I just think the more people in this debate the more I become sure we are right. I like some of the stuff Hayton writes but I have also learned from this thread alone one or two things I didn't know and that has added to my knowledge.

Sorry Tinsel what I meant was, as far as I know everything about APG has been a link. I personally am unaware of anyone with APG posting directly on here (I bloody well hope not).

It's too hot

February 2020 Quillette article by Dr Hayton:

'I May Have Gender Dysphoria. But I Still Prefer to Base My Life on Biology, Not Fantasy'
"Autogynephilia drove my own transsexualism."
''I speak from experience when I say that it’s difficult for autogynephiles to admit the simple truth that they are simply heterosexual males who use the conceit of female self-identification as a means to rationalize their sexual attraction to a female version of themselves.''.
quillette.com/2020/02/02/i-may-have-gender-dysphoria-but-i-still-prefer-to-base-my-life-on-biology-not-fantasy/

Datun · 19/07/2021 16:25

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

Hayton has been asked, many times, on this forum alone, to say whether they now disagree with the guidelines they wrote

I was eventually more gratified than I should have been that Prof Wintermute had undergone a semi-damascene conversion on the omission of women's perspective from the Yogakarta Principles.

However - I could stand to learn a lot more about what he's actively doing to lobby his fellow signatories to undo this harm. (I know he's a trustee of LGB Alliance. I feel the damage from Yogakarta needs to be unpicked.)

Yes, I totally get that.

We're so far down the rabbit hole that the smallest concession feels like a massive favour. When it bloody well isn't.

highame · 19/07/2021 16:24

Being able to say look, even this transwoman agrees with us! I hope neither I, nor anyone else said that. I just think the more people in this debate the more I become sure we are right. I like some of the stuff Hayton writes but I have also learned from this thread alone one or two things I didn't know and that has added to my knowledge.

Sorry Tinsel what I meant was, as far as I know everything about APG has been a link. I personally am unaware of anyone with APG posting directly on here (I bloody well hope not).

It's too hot

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 19/07/2021 16:04

Hayton has been asked, many times, on this forum alone, to say whether they now disagree with the guidelines they wrote

I was eventually more gratified than I should have been that Prof Wintermute had undergone a semi-damascene conversion on the omission of women's perspective from the Yogakarta Principles.

However - I could stand to learn a lot more about what he's actively doing to lobby his fellow signatories to undo this harm. (I know he's a trustee of LGB Alliance. I feel the damage from Yogakarta needs to be unpicked.)

Datun · 19/07/2021 15:26

Hayton is a confessed AGP. They are quite upfront and open about it.

This is the PubMed.gov definition.

Autogynephilia is defined as a male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female. It is the paraphilia that is theorized to underlie transvestism and some forms of male-to-female (MtF) transsexualism.

AGP directly negatively affects women.

Hayton co wrote the trade union guidelines that meant men identifying as women could use female facilities, and also the policy resulting in school children calling them Miss.

Also, speaking at a WPUK meeting, Hayton made a joke about having used the female facilities (I can't remember the exact details). At an actual meeting being held to advocate sex segregated spaces!

In the distant past, I considered whether it might be good strategy to hear from transwomen who seem to support women. Including when it looks like a change of heart.

Being able to say look, even this transwoman agrees with us!

But I quickly came to the conclusion that I was wrong. And many women, before me, found this out.

Apart from anything else, I asked myself whether I needed a male, at all, to analyse my (gender critical) feminism for me. Especially one who has been part of the root cause of the issue in the first place.

Hayton has been asked, many times, on this forum alone, to say whether they now disagree with the guidelines they wrote and has refused to answer.

I don't know about anyone else, but to me it obviously means they still agree, but don't want to have to say so.

Which is shit.

Floisme · 19/07/2021 14:11

I saw and responded to Zutt's post and, from what I can remember, it said nothing that hasn't been made public by Hayton.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 19/07/2021 13:14

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.
What got me deleted?

Repeating haytons admission he has APG, he wants to destigmatise it, or that he makes school children refer to him as she?

Or was it that I called a man he?

Let me know so I can repost with the delete able part removed.

TinselAngel · 19/07/2021 12:46

no one displaying APG has posted in that capacity.

Sorry I don't know what you mean?

highame · 19/07/2021 12:42

I simply ask as I always do that women consider a simple question- who do you think has most to contribute- trans widows or our exes, because you can't have both. I regularly thank the universe that I found this place before my ex did or else I, and therefore probably the rest of the trans widows wouldn't be here.

Of course it would be you, there is no question and thanks for replying but these are links, so far as I'm aware, no one displaying APG has posted in that capacity.

Floisme · 19/07/2021 12:39

I know that. And the reason I know it is that Hayton has a platform.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 19/07/2021 12:33

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Floisme · 19/07/2021 12:08

I think Debbie is a conflicted person in a conflicted position and the conflictions show up in the writing.
I totally agree but that's kind of my point. I've found it very helpful to see some of the contradictions exposed on here and without a platform that exposure can't happen.

The Labour Party question is hypothetical by the way - I'm not aware of any conversation between Hayton and Phillips. But frankly I would no longer care if the person opening the door were male or female. I'm pragmatic.

TinselAngel · 19/07/2021 12:00

However, if you want @TinselAngel, to trade pain, I’m up for those rounds.

Drawing on my own experience (without going into any particular detail that I recall) in order to argue for excluding male AGP perpetrators* from feminism is "trading pain"? I'm certainly not looking for any woman's sympathy. I want righteous anger not pity.

I simply ask as I always do that women consider a simple question- who do you think has most to contribute- trans widows or our exes, because you can't have both. I regularly thank the universe that I found this place before my ex did or else I, and therefore probably the rest of the trans widows wouldn't be here.

There have been numerous threads on here discussing this so I am not singling you out. I am perhaps abrupt on this now because I have been posting about it for so long that I have little patience left.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605090-Boundaries-and-Allies

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript

I also thank any woman who has supported trans widows in the past but that does not make anyone immune from criticism if they (generally unknowingly) then act to our detriment.

*See Empresses post for justification of the use of "perpetrator".

Melroses · 19/07/2021 11:48

I think Debbie is a conflicted person in a conflicted position and the conflictions show up in the writing.

I am not sure that DH's views would help women in the Labour Party, beyond opening a door (why do we need men to do this for us?) because the conflicted position and conflicted views mean there are blindspots. Also Labour in their current state will tick this off their list as having consulted with women and would not look any further.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 19/07/2021 11:42

I'm very uncomfortable at the phrase if we give a platform to.... It is not something I expected to see on here.

I’m nearly at the end of my coffee break so can’t reply in detail but I’ll pick up on that. Dr Hayton obviously has plenty of platforms & I'm not at all saying that he should be silenced or that people shouldn’t listen to him. What I am saying is that feminism should be about prioritising women’s voices, not those of their husbands / exes. In the interview the Haytons did together on the Straight Spouse Network podcast they recounted how Dr Hayton told Stephanie Hayton that he would leave if she asked him to. When she did ask him to, he (in his own words) ‘pushed the boundaries’ and refused.

When all the feminists are praising your trans spouse, how do you speak out if you’re not happy with him?

Floisme · 19/07/2021 11:32

If it hadn't been for some of Debbie Hayton's writing I might never have found my way to FWR. I doubt I'm alone in that.

If Jess Phillips were to have a conversation with Hayton and as a result, shift her position do I think that would be helpful to women in the Labour Party party? Yes I do.

On the other hand, if it hadn't been for this board, I'd have never known about Hayton's role in that policy for teaching staff, or noticed that Hayton never seems to answer questions about it. Nor would I have read that interview with Debbie and Stephanie.

In short, I'm conflicted. I'm also indifferent to opinions about my critical thinking skills. I think it's been helpful to see exposure on this board on the full range of Haytons writings and behaviours, and I'm very uncomfortable at the phrase if we give a platform to.... It is not something I expected to see on here.

Melroses · 19/07/2021 11:08

I don't think DH equates to Grayson Perry at all. Perry is very much an artist who expresses his gender fluidity as part of his art but there is no doubt he is a man. His career is his art.