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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Helen Webberley

978 replies

Signalbox · 05/07/2021 11:59

Looks like Helem Webberley's substantive case has finally been listed for 26th July 2021

www.mpts-uk.org/hearings-and-decisions/medical-practitioners-tribunals/dr-helen-webberley-jul-21

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 26/07/2021 17:08

Hang on, she was flogging clomid privately before developing her "interest" in gender?

Fertility and gender, particularly paediatric gender, are quite different disciplines, are they not?

Maybe she is focusing on the "most desperate/willing to pay" populations. Wonder if you need to be a registered doctor to supply tape worms to fat people?

R0wantrees · 26/07/2021 16:59

ibid. PencilsInSpace wrote,
"PfC's objections to the way GIRES was attempting to work with intersex groups seem quite different from the objections of the intersex groups themselves.

An open letter by Claire McNab of PfC makes clear that the main objection was that GIRES were consulting with medical professionals rather than intersex people themselves. Claire writes as an individual however this seems to be PfC's position as a whole. At least I haven't found anything contradicting Claire's position from anyone else in PfC.

The Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome Support Group (AISSG) UK on the other hand, objected to the appropriation of intersex to further the trans agenda. Here's their statement in full. This was also posted to the PfC news lists.
<a class="break-all" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20170117130415/www.aissg.org/15_ANNOUNCE.HTM#14%20May%202000" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20170117130415/www.aissg.org/15_ANNOUNCE.HTM#14%20May%202000 (continues)

Summary

After extensive email correspondence with Bernard Reed of GIRES during mid March to early April 2000, we decided not to work with GIRES at the present time. Overall, we wish to disassociate ourselves from GIRES and to state that they do not represent us.

We have already established mutually beneficial relationships with several groups of clinicians and are working with them on AIS-related research projects and the provision of multi-disciplinary patient care. We collaborate on joint projects with other related support organisations (e.g. the UK Turner Syndrome Society, the Anorchidism Support Group) via a consortium set up by the Genetic Interest Group. Within this consortium (set up in 1999) we have recently published a leaflet for clinicians to give to parents on receipt of a 'genetic diagnosis' and have obtained a grant from the Baring Foundation to enable one of the clinical psychologists with whom we work to carry out counselling skills training for the three groups' helpline volunteers. We also work very closely on an informal basis with the UK's Adrenal Hyperplasia Network (AHN) and Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH) Group.

We do not foresee that an association with GIRES would follow the same spirit as those above, so do not wish to join forces with Reed. We believe that Reed's desire to change the medical management of intersex, although reasonable in itself, is based firmly on the discourse of gender dysphoria (transsexualism/transgender, often referred to as 'trans') and moreover masks an underlying attempt to exploit physical/biological intersex so as to provide an authenticity to that scenario, an authentication that it doesn't need." (continues)

R0wantrees · 26/07/2021 16:50

ibid. PencilsInSpace wrote,

"Who knew PfC and GIRES parted ways in 2000, in large part because of the way GIRES treated intersex people and support groups?

Relationship of PFC and Gires
<a class="break-all" href="https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20061116120000/www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/2000q2/msg00084.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20061116120000/www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/2000q2/msg00084.htm

Dear Colleagues

With great regret the Press for Change Vice Presidents publish the statement below. We are aware that some people will wish we had taken this decision sooner whilst others will wish we had not taken it at all. It is not a hasty decision, and the publication of this statement has been delayed further because of our efforts to obtain all the facts and to listen to as many points of view as possible. We are grateful for the patience of those who would have liked an earlier decision. In the event it has still not been physically possible to speak to all those affected, but in the circumstances we feel that we have no choice now but to publish first and talk about it afterwards. We would be grateful if everyone would read the statement in full, and we will gladly answer any questions you have. We would like to stress that this decision is intended as a constructive action in a difficult situation and that we do not wish to attach blame to any individual involved.

STATEMENT BY THE PRESS FOR CHANGE VICE PRESIDENTS: 18th May 2000
THE RELATIONSHIP OF PRESS FOR CHANGE AND THE GENDER IDENTITY RESEARCH AND EDUCATION SOCIETY

At the 1996 Press for Change Planning Meeting it was decided to look into setting up a subsidiary charity which would have the mandate of providing education and information about trans issues. As a charity it would be enabled to obtain tax refunds on subscriptions and donations and raise money from sources not accessible to Press for Change (which as an overtly political organisation cannot apply for charitable status in its own right) and it was hoped it could eventually take on - and expand - the.work of Press for Change in the areas of publication of information, education and training, research and support for students.

It was later agreed to establish the Gender Identity Research and Education Society (Gires). Gires was registered as an independent charity in February 1998 with no formal relationship to Press for Change. A separate entity was required under charity law and was thus the easiest arrangement. However almost all the Gires trustees were (and are) also members of Press for Change, and the Charity Commisssion agreed that it would be acceptable for Gires to use the strapline "Working alongside Press for Change ". Later a "contractual service agreement" was agreed between Press for Change and Gires which cemented a close relationship.

In January 1999, GIRES' charitable objects were agreed by its founding members to be:
To advance education into gender identity and intersex Issues, and in particular:
a. To initiate, promote and support research particularly to address the needs of those in whom there is a strong and ongoing desire to live and be accepted as a member of the sex opposite from that assigned at birth;
b. To publish the outcomes of such research and other relevant information in order to inform interested parties and the general public;
c. To enable the public to achieve a wider understanding of these issues and thereby equal treatment within society of those whom they affect.

For many reasons, things have not turned out as originally envisioned.

Gires has never been in any practical sense a "subsidiary" of Press for Change, nor has it restricted its activities to raising money for the educational work of Press for Change. Rather, it has developed into an organisation in its own right with a clear direction of its own.

Because of a policy of trying to draw funds from new sources, rather than from existing supporters of Press for Change (who can and do donate directly to Press for Change), Gires has raised most of its funds from outside the trans community and more than half of its membership consists of non trans people. It has to date been unsuccessful in securing much funding which could be used directly to subsidise the educational work of Press for Change, and responsibility for this must be shared by Gires and by Press for Change, which because of pressure of work has been unable to invest the necessary time into providing Gires' trustees with the direction and information they required. Instead however Gires has set up medical and social "research panels" consisting overwhelmingly professionals who are not trans people. It has also become increasingly involved with policy making rather than straightforward education and research. The nature of the research panels has damaged Gires' credibility as a supporter of the trans community and its involvement with policy has created difficulties as it has strayed into areas in which Press for Change and other groups representing trans people are already working.

Gires' position as an organisation of mostly non trans people could be and at times has been a strength, in that having non trans people support or speak in favour of equality and respect for trans people adds weight to our case. Unfortunately it can also be a weakness if it appears that Gires is exceeding its mandate or is failing adequately to represent or consult with the client group it exists to serve.

In particular we have been alarmed by the recent involvement of Gires in intersex issues, which has caused widespread offence amongst intersex people and the existing groups which represent them. Press for Change regrets this very much. We fully support their right to represent themselves, or not, as they see fit, and have advised Gires to proceed with great caution with any further work in this field.

We have also advised Gires to ensure that any further work they do in representing the interests of trans people to others, especially to public authorities and decision making bodies, is only carried out in full collaboration with other existing groups such as GenTrust, the FTM Network, Mermaids, Change, G & SA and Press for Change, and that we consider it at all times inappropriate for Gires to appear to be negotiating on behalf of the wider trans community, which is in itself already diverse.

The Press for Change Vice Presidents have decided that it is wise at this point to end the current semi-formal link between the two organisations. We believe that this link is no longer of any great benefit to either organisation and has the potential to lead to a serious conflict of interest. We feel Gires needs to be free to pursue its own agenda without formal reference to Press for Change and that our attempts to direct and advise Gires are increasingly leading to friction which is damaging personal relationships and taking time and energy away from the campaign itself. Press for Change, for its part, will no longer be in any way accountable for the actions of Gires. However if current differences of approach can be resolved, we very much hope it will be possible to collaborate with Gires in future, most especially in the areas of research and education where Gires is well placed to undertake some good work.

We hope very much that the separation of the two organisations will free both of them to concentrate on their primary objectives - the achievement of equality and respect for all trans people through education, legislation and social change.

Christine Burns
Claire McNab
Mark Rees
Sarah Rutherford
Alex Whinnom
Stephen Whittle"

merrymouse · 26/07/2021 16:49

[quote WarriorN]Thread here, a few pointing out the dangers of this.

Clearly don't care.

Anyone used Oxford Online Pharmacy for Clomid? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/infertility/2544934-Anyone-used-Oxford-Online-Pharmacy-for-Clomid[/quote]
Doesn't even address the dangers. Just picks up the thread two weeks later touting for business.

WarriorN · 26/07/2021 16:45

Thanks for the excellent forensics R0.

R0wantrees · 26/07/2021 16:42

apologies
<a class="break-all" href="//web.archive.org/web/20051029231637/www.gires.org.uk/Web_Page_Assets/frontframeset.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20051029231637/www.gires.org.uk/Web_Page_Assets/frontframeset.htm

R0wantrees · 26/07/2021 16:41

From 'Let's go back' thread linked above,

Anlaf wrote,
"Here is GIRES' website from 2005 - already recommending that adolescent treatment include puberty blockers and cross sex hormones. also has children's handout called "your dad's adventure" which is grimly controlling and ends "and she needs you to love her too"

[web.archive.org/web/20051029231637/www.gires.org.uk/Web_Page_Assets/frontframeset.htm]]

R0wantrees · 26/07/2021 16:38

www.gires.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/GIRES-AGM-Minutes-September-2016.pdf

2016 GIRES AGM
"The Chair Celia Macleod welcomed members and guests
including Baroness Elizabeth Barker and Dr Helen Webberley to the 18th AGM of the Society'

  1. Any Other Business
None. The Meeting closed at 3.30pm. Afterwards Baroness Barker spoke on Parliamentary and political aspects of current transgender issues and Dr. Helen Webberley spoke on transgender health care as a GP. Other matters discussed included the Report of the House of Commons Women & Equalities Committee Inquiry, Brexit, trans*formation and trans individuals in prison. There was also a workshop for families of gender nonconforming people. Bernard and Terry were thanked for their hospitality and we all clapped when Baroness Barker praised Terry for her great vision and persistence."
R0wantrees · 26/07/2021 16:36

Helen Webberley Tribunal Tweets
IS refers to evidence which appears to be correspondence from Terry Read at GIRES to Baroness Barker.

mobile.twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1419671113236422659

Relevant threads:

p4 Anlaf wrote, Sun 24-Feb-19

"Now who knew that GIRES was set up as the charitable arm of Press for Change? I did not.

The Gender Identity Research and Education Society

Press for Change activists Bernard Reed and Yvonne Wingfield have been hard at work setting up a charity, which is now going for registration with the Charity Commission.

The idea is to allow the charity to take on - and expand - the current work of Press for Change in the areas of publication of information, education and training, research and support for students. PFC itself cannot be a charity, being of its nature political, but it makes sense to siphon off some of our activities into a charity, especially as the range of our activities continues to expand.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3188145-anyone-know-the-gender-identity-research-education-society-gires

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3389255-Could-any-one-tell-me-about-Gires

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3322310-gires-school-resources

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3160730-GIRES-Dsyphoria-Training-for-GPs

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3497770-RC-for-GPs-scraps-GIRES-developed-course

WarriorN · 26/07/2021 15:34

Thread here, a few pointing out the dangers of this.

Clearly don't care.

Anyone used Oxford Online Pharmacy for Clomid? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/infertility/2544934-Anyone-used-Oxford-Online-Pharmacy-for-Clomid

WarriorN · 26/07/2021 15:30

An hcp doesn't want to appear in person due to "fear." (Unrelated to the tribunal apparently/ what ever that means.)

Also this:

Helen Webberley
Signalbox · 26/07/2021 15:29

Yet another interview.
She's really going for it in the court of public opinion isn't she?

inews.co.uk/news/health/gender-clinic-patients-tribunal-gendergp-doctor-helen-webberley-nhs-1121007

OP posts:
PronounssheRa · 26/07/2021 15:24

Yep. Sounds like she's trying to use those testimonials she was asking for.

Anonymous testimonials, that can't be tested because the writers aren't witnesses and posts from the gender GP website.

Webberleys defence appears to be 'I ignored regulatory framework of the United Kingdom, leading to a criminal conviction because people/children asked me to'

The Tavistock also isn't appearing as a witness.

Side issue webberley Internet connection is shocking.

FannyCann · 26/07/2021 14:52

I never understood that case as I had been taught that there was INCREASED risk of SIDS in a family where this had happened previously and iirc there was a national campaign to raise awareness and educate HCPs (eg midwives like me, as I was then) and to offer additional support and monitoring to families with a previous SID.

I can't remember the factors taken into account to conclude increased risk likely but off the top of my head there would surely be maternal health factors/raised BP/smoking/prematurity all of which would be likely to be a factor in subsequent pregnancies, but obviously there would be other issues as well in individual families.

Lettera · 26/07/2021 14:40

Poor Sally Clark Flowers

Tibtom · 26/07/2021 14:34

Yes, that is the one. Interesting blog too

Zeugma · 26/07/2021 14:21

A blogpost on the misunderstanding of probability in that shocking case

R0wantrees · 26/07/2021 14:13

Professor Sir Roy Meadow?
www.theguardian.com/society/2003/dec/19/health.childprotection

Tibtom · 26/07/2021 14:09

What was the name of the 'expert' witness doctor in the 1990s I think who's testimony led to a woman being imprisoned for murdering her children? Later overturned. I remember his testimony included a statement something like "the chance of this occurring in one child was 1 in a hundred thousand, so the chance of it in two children would be 1 in 10 billion." Which completely ignored the fact that if they were related events then the chance of it occurring in the second child could be as high as a certainty - 1 in 1. I remember thinking how did no one in court pick this up?

R0wantrees · 26/07/2021 14:05

The one about Jay is absolutely shocking. I don't recall seeing that before. If I understand that correctly, Jay now has a GRC and if out of prison is therefore likely to be using women's toilets, changing rooms etc. Lovely. If in prison, may be in a women's prison. Terrifying.

Further background here by STILLTish includes evidence that 'Ms Jay' changed name frequently prior to obtaining a GRC:

gendercriticalwoman.wordpress.com/2019/10/10/gender-recognition-certificates/

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 26/07/2021 13:26

Thanks for all those links, R0wan. The one about Jay is absolutely shocking. I don't recall seeing that before. If I understand that correctly, Jay now has a GRC and if out of prison is therefore likely to be using women's toilets, changing rooms etc. Lovely. If in prison, may be in a women's prison. Terrifying.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/07/2021 12:51

@WarriorN

Skeleton arguments sound bloody flimsy
Yep. Sounds like she's trying to use those testimonials she was asking for.
WarriorN · 26/07/2021 12:48

Skeleton arguments sound bloody flimsy

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/07/2021 12:33

Are the skeleton arguments published anywhere?

R0wantrees · 26/07/2021 11:49

Sunday Times Andrew Gilligan and Melanie Newman
Sunday May 12 2019

'The tangled case of the brothers who became girls aged seven and three
A couple’s own son transitioned — and within months they were given a baby to foster, who became a girl too'
(extract)
A boy transitioned to being a girl from the age of three after being sent to live with foster parents, whose own son had just legally transitioned at the age of seven.

The younger child was dressed in girls’ clothes, even though teachers had “expressly asked” the foster parents not to do so.

SPONSORED

A third foster child previously cared for by the couple also had “gender identity issues”.

The actions of the foster parents, known only as CP and TP, led to an investigation by Lancashire county council’s social services amid fears they had “manipulated” their children’s gender, had “actively encouraged” the change and risked causing them “significant emotional harm”.

However, in a closed hearing at Preston family court last month the concerns were dismissed (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-tangled-case-of-the-brothers-who-became-girls-aged-seven-and-three-dq7spwkdq