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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How do you cope with the anger when dealing with issues and idiots?

66 replies

BigButtons · 16/06/2021 07:23

I have recently become more actively involved in reading threads and articles and having active discussions on women’s issues and the whole GC issue.
I still don’t understand a lot of the terminology and am confused by many of the laws and arguments on here and elsewhere.
I find it very hard to put my thoughts into words as I just feel so angry about the whole thing; the erosion of women, appropriation, trans rights, all of it.
I really want to be become better informed, I want to be able to hold my own in discussions . It all makes me so angry though that I find I just get emotional rather than pouring measures arguments forward.
How do you deal with that?
Is anger a part of fighting this fight?

OP posts:
Lonel · 17/06/2021 09:08

Avoid getting involved in pointless spats on Twitter - you often end up arguing with American teenage boys who have absolutely no idea what the debate is actually about but can spin it out for hours. Instead talk to people in real life about the issues. So many women still haven't realised what is happening.

DodoPatrol · 17/06/2021 09:06

I spent a while avoiding one set of in-laws until my anger had cooled over this, to be honest. They are too deeply invested now, after our young relative has had surgery that they funded.

I stick to ensuring that my own children know that if ‘Tom’ needs emergency medical treatment or whatever on their watch, they should be clear to medics that he has a female body, as that information could be life saving.

NonnyMouse1337 · 17/06/2021 08:59

It's important to also pick and choose your battles. You are never going to convince a trans activist to change their mind, especially online where it's a public space and human nature means they won't want to publicly admit they might be wrong lest their own friends turn on them. Remember the real audience though - those lurking and reading but not commenting.
I add links and comments on Facebook - on news articles posted by the BBC, Guardian, Times, LBC etc etc. Lots of people reading and I avoid getting derailed and dragged into word play. Never ever use the words and phrases of the trans activists - stick to simple, clear language like males who identify as women. It's more long-winded but the average person immediately gets what you're saying and easily understands the problems.

JuneJustRains · 17/06/2021 08:48

on a birth control leaflet she has recently been given it referred to women as ‘ birth givers’.

They clearly don’t have much confidence in their own product then.

cervixuser · 17/06/2021 08:42

slightly off topic - does anyone know if there is a GC group in Shropshire?

BigButtons · 17/06/2021 08:29

Since my brain has atrophied over these last few years I am going to use this as a way to fire it back up again: making myself familiar with names, cases, laws etc so at least I will have some evidence to back up my opinions.

My 19 year old told me yesterday that on a birth control leaflet she has recently been given it referred to women as ‘ birth givers’.
I was horrified and so was she.

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 16/06/2021 16:28

I don't deal with it. Its devastating when you realise how few people support your human rights.

There are trademarked foods that have more legal recognition than 5!% of the human race.

AnyOldPrion · 16/06/2021 16:22

@BigButtons

he would just say that they had a right and that I had no right to say that they were not female if that's how they identified. I find it astonishing that a man with a wife and a young granddaughter would think of women in this way.
Sorry, that was in response to this post.
Ostara212 · 16/06/2021 16:21

Does anyone see refusal to engage as a good idea?

I am thinking to keep on writing to those in power but not discuss it.

It is especially weird with the "I saw on tiktok" people.

AnyOldPrion · 16/06/2021 16:21

So in your opinion, a man has the right to say he’s a woman, and women are not allowed to question it? I see you haven’t answered my question. Are you trying to avoid doing so?

Can you explain in what way a man is female, just because he claims to be so?

Someone up thread said they are now generally icy cool in their rage. You need to have absolute faith in the knowledge that you are right, and he’s speaking nonsense, which he is.

Good luck. It does get easier with practice.

BigButtons · 16/06/2021 16:19

@AnyOldPrion thank you that is so useful. I am taking notes now to help all these suggestions sink in and also to have a reference to turn to when I am involved in a 'discussion'.

OP posts:
BigButtons · 16/06/2021 16:18

[quote andyoldlabour]OP, with regard to your OH, could you give examples of sports, where there are now transwomen competing in and winning in the women's category. Perhaps explain to him, that these people very often have no surgery whatsoever.
Here are a few examples.

www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1108399/anna-vanbellinghen-hubbard

interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/03/a-level-playing-field/

www.thecricketblog.com/maxine-blythin-and-the-curious-case-of-womens-cricket/

www.nationalreview.com/2019/10/rachel-mckinnon-is-a-cheat-and-a-bully/[/quote]
I haver tried this but he doesn't believe me because he thinks that would be too outrageous! I agree with him. Thank you for the links. I will show them to him.

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AnyOldPrion · 16/06/2021 16:16

Forgot to say, never ever get dragged into using their language and definitions. Use plain English that doesn’t in any way imply that men are women. It clears the mind wonderfully…. (which is exactly why they have worked so hard to make speaking the truth offensive).

BigButtons · 16/06/2021 16:15

he would just say that they had a right and that I had no right to say that they were not female if that's how they identified.
I find it astonishing that a man with a wife and a young granddaughter would think of women in this way.

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AnyOldPrion · 16/06/2021 16:13

the answer would have been:
that anyone who chooses to identify as female is female regardless their biological sex therefore any male who says they are female has the right to women's spaces.
How do you deal with that kind of response?

Can you explain in what way a man is female, just because he claims to be so?

Rinse and repeat…

AnyOldPrion · 16/06/2021 16:09

The Staniland question is a good one to use:

I find rational questions regarding what the other person is saying are useful, as outlined by RoyalCorgi above.

It’s very common that the other person will be evasive and make strenuous attempts to avoid answering. My preferred technique is to point out every attempt at prevarication and repeat the question.

You might commonly find:

  1. Your words are being twisted to suggest you said something you didn’t:

TA: “How are you going to police it? Are you going to check everyone’s genitalia? You GCs are all obsessed with genitalia.”

Me: I didn’t mention genitalia, you did. You appear to be prevaricating. Can you answer the question please?

  1. You are called names or subjected to an ad hominem attack.

TA: Typical bigoted question T**F.

Me: Are you unable to give a response? Ad hominem attacks and name-calling are generally a sign that someone has no coherent argument. I’ll ask again… repeat the question.

  1. They might demand evidence. With experience you can build up a knowledge of legal cases, medical skepticism from reliable sources and evidence provided by professionals in response to inquiries etc.

But again, if they demand evidence in an attempt to avoid responding to the question, don’t forget to come back to it, regardless of whether you provide evidence or not.

Take your time when responding, assuming you’re online. Sometimes I can’t work out immediately how to respond, especially if my words have been twisted, but given a bit of time, the specific line of gaslighting tends to become clear. There’s usually something that you realise you didn’t say, which wasn’t even implied in what you said. I always point out when they’ve implied I said something I didn’t.

I don’t know how I’d fare in a live conversation, but having a very clear mind about the subject, perfected over serial online discussions, can’t do any harm.

I continue this technique for as long as they continue to avoid the question and remain relatively civil. It starts to be very obvious after a fairly short exchange that they actually can’t answer the question because they know the answer is untrue or damaging.

If I find myself getting angry, I either take a break or remove myself from the conversation. When I don’t, I put myself at risk of banning (Twitter) or strikes (Mumsnet). I’ve had both, generally because I allowed my rage to overcome my better judgement.

andyoldlabour · 16/06/2021 16:08

OP, with regard to your OH, could you give examples of sports, where there are now transwomen competing in and winning in the women's category. Perhaps explain to him, that these people very often have no surgery whatsoever.
Here are a few examples.

www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1108399/anna-vanbellinghen-hubbard

interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/03/a-level-playing-field/

www.thecricketblog.com/maxine-blythin-and-the-curious-case-of-womens-cricket/

www.nationalreview.com/2019/10/rachel-mckinnon-is-a-cheat-and-a-bully/

BigButtons · 16/06/2021 15:46

I am glad I am not alone with the rage but also sad that the rage has to be there. if I had used the question "Do you believe that male-sexed people should have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with women and girls?" in my online 'discussion' last week I know the answer would have been:
that anyone who chooses to identify as female is female regardless their biological sex therefore any male who says they are female has the right to women's spaces.
How do you deal with that kind of response?
That is the kind of shittery that I can't find an answer for.

OP posts:
TooYoungToNotice · 16/06/2021 15:40

RoyalCorgi I think the Staniland question is so very pertinent. It brings the argument down to brass tacks. Its all very well to dress the argument up in intellectual niceties, but at the end of the day the question is, do you think it is okay for women and girls to be confronted by male bodies in single sex spaces. That is the gritty reality.

I must try and keep it in mind for conversation purposes.

RoyalCorgi · 16/06/2021 15:01

It's very hard online. I feel in a state of rage most of the time.

I think if you find yourself about to call someone a "fucking moron", stop, step back and think. It can be worth having a few well-rehearsed lines that express clearly, but not in angry terms, what your position is.
And then just use them time and again.

Asking questions rather than making outright statements is useful, e.g. "How do you define woman?" "What is it about JK Rowling's essay that you find 'transphobic'?" Do you think this person [pic of Karen White, Barbie Kardashian, Jessica Yaniv or multiple others] is a woman?"

The Staniland question is a good one to use: "Do you believe that male-sexed people should have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with women and girls?"

JediGnot · 16/06/2021 14:25

I think the rage is similar to the rage that an atheist has when asked to prove god doesn't exist by a religious fanatic.

It is the rage you'd get if you were asked whether right handed people are more or likely to use their right hand when writing, compared to left handed people, only to be laughed at because you were unable to find a peer reviewed study to justify your position.

To a very large extent I think talking is almost pointless. I'd like to think that a sensible way forward would be for both sides to ask the other side to watch a video (GC might like to use the recent "The State Media" vid from youtube) and say "that's my position, where did that video err in fact, and what views expressed do you disagree with and why?"

Waitwhat23 · 16/06/2021 13:09

I assuage my rage by stickering, ribboning, doing slates, signing petitions, writing to my MSP's, buying products and services from people and companies who support women's rights. I felt I was shouting into the void a bit until recently until I realised that a house in my village has recently festooned the trees in their garden with suffragette ribbons which made me feel less like I was shaking my fist at the clouds!

In terms of talking to people, I find that it's just too big an issue to jump into - where do you start? I usually ask a question which is clear and concise - 'are you aware of the recent MOJ hearing regarding women being raped in prisons by convicted sex offenders?' to get to the heart of the issue and without getting bogged down in the inevitable toilet discussion.

BigButtons · 16/06/2021 12:54

@TooYoungToNotice I feel the same.I am trying to explain all this to me other half. He finds it hard to comprehend I guess because he’s male? I have take. To reading out posts on this section. When he can’t get it it forces me to explain what i understand what I’m reading which turn is helping me to consolidate my own thoughts.

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TooYoungToNotice · 16/06/2021 12:41

I'm like quixote9, whilst I've been reading about the issues for a good while now, I find it very difficult to deal with the anger it provokes in me.

To be honest, the vast, vast majority of people I've spoken to in real life have agreed with the CG position without hesitation.

I do have an old friend who is supposed to be clever (and is indeed doing a higher degree) tell me that she wasn't comfortable with my position, that she values men enough to stand up for their rights (not sure why she doesn't value women enough) and that self ID was fine, and it was ok to let male bodied people into single sex women's spaces because 'they have to go somewhere '.

There are so many things I could have rebutted her little tantrum with thanks to the many brilliant posters on Mumsnet and other reading, however I was speechless with rage. Not a word would come. Probably a good job as it could have simply been an incoherent scream of barely stifled outrage at the injustice women face and of her collusion in it.

I hope one day to be able to discuss the topic without the red mist descending but it's certainly going to take more time.

And if that particular friend mentions Butler once more then God help me.

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