Compromise for new FWR section - could you support this?

All that really needs to happen is MNHQ need to be brave enough to make the changes to talk guidelines originally requested in the Site Stuff thread to reflect the outcome of Maya's case. All this talk of reshuffles and subsections is just smoke and mirrors to avoid having to tackle the real problem, which is the backlash those changes would provoke from the 'monitors'. Disappointing to say the least.

There's no need for any moral high ground. There is a need to observe equality laws correctly, and Mumsnet should be the flagship for that.

The boards were split several years ago because people objected to the radfems. This is no different. Its still the feminists that are being presented as 'the problem', on the board that was created for them.

Feminism chat needs to stay as is. I don't know why there are so many other subtopics under the feminism section so those could be streamlined.

If there has to be another section, can we keep Feminism chat like it is- for all topics on feminism, of which at its core is related to issues on sex and gender- it cannot be separated from feminism. For those who like to come on and complain (without ever bothering to post or actually start threads they claim to be interested in), maybe @MNHQ could create a subtopic called Libfem or something. Where the feminists who want to please men can avoid us nasty vipers over here.

I was annoyed too at that 'Disapointed...' comment too but to be fair (and it's the second time this morning I've written that) the second half of the sentence gives it some context. I think it's equally directed at the likes of some departed TRA posters and midnight gentleman callers.

Blimey that message from Justine is somewhat 😬😬

“Disappointed that we insist on respectful language and inclusivity here”

I’m really hoping that’s just clumsy phrasing Abd isn’t meant how it’s coming across….

No

@justineMN

"I know some of you will be disappointed that we insist on respectful language and inclusivity here"

When you insist on inclusivity, are you insisting that we include natal males in our definition of women?

"I know some of you will be disappointed that we insist on respectful language and inclusivity here"

I don't like that bit. We're not all sat here waiting for permission to be rude to people.

My request to Mumsnet is to not split the topic, or if you must, start a new Feminist section for those who don t like the sex and gender debate.

This board is tremendously important.

I say that if there are those who don't like the content of FWR, start your own threads about what you want to talk about, or find another site that is more to your liking?

These "many" requests that MNHQ have received to split the topic...define many? There must be thousands of us here who quietly lurk.

goes back to lurking

I would have thought that in the light of Maya’s judgement MN would be falling over themselves to right any wrongs done to women and show support. No, we do not need to be penned up. A start might be an amnesty for those banned over incomprehensible rules.

Pretty disappointing to read this. For every high in this movement there seems to follow a low. They come from such unexpected sources sometimes.

What is it MN are proposing exactly? I must’ve missed it in the other thread.

"The attempt to separate will kill FWR."

I think that's the aim.

It won't work.

For the mere fact we all see sex no matter how much some try to pretend they don't. We all know the sex we are. Trans identity is based on the refusal of it. Non-binary identity is based on the denial of it. Women's identity is based on the acceptance of material reality.

Gender on the other hand is based on stereotypes. No matter now much we deny its not. It is manifested in discrimination, trying to copy dress/voice/mannerism etc, a total denial of these stereotypes even though we know they are happening.

Is it possible to please everyone and talk about one without talking about the other when you talk about feminism?

Good luck with that as a plan.

The problem is that woman's rights and issues always sit on these cross roads and these conflict with the political ambitions of several political parties and Stonewall.

You can't talk about women's rights without the trans conflict popping up at some point. If you talk about refuges and you suddenly have males who can self identify as women where does that leave the refugee? Are the interests of the two groups the same.

Time and again the thing that crops up is that ultimately women and trans people have different priorities and concerns. These need unpicking properly rather than trying to pretend there isn't an issue and ignoring the great big herd of elephants in the room.

To say you can split debate along gender and sex lines is to massively lack any understanding of the problems and challenges women face in their lives either by accident or design. Women's Rights require us to discuss both - and usually in conjunction with each other - at a fundamental level

I do think the ultimate discrimination comes from simulantaneously conflating sex and gender whilst being unable to clearly discuss both. They are not interchangeable but they also are both issues which can not be unhooked from women's rights and discrimination against women because they feed into each other.

For example, women are physically weaker and smaller than men in general. This is then converted to women are unwomanly for not being dainty and feminine enough or discrimination suggesting they are incapable of certain 'male' tasks without being allowed the chance to first demonstrate capability.

The two are conjoined twins. The attempt to separate will kill FWR.

So how is this different from transwomen wanting to take the word woman?

Is Mumsnet really saying feminists can only talk about knitting in the FWR main forum & thinking that FWR will still be the one that pretty much always has a post or three in the Active threads?

Moving the ability to talk about the most vicious threat to women in my lifetime (the encroachment into our language & lives as it relates to sex & gender) to a different forum will just make the new location become the new FWR forum that has all the activity in it while the rest continue to echo to the distant sounds of tumbleweeds as nothing really relevant or important to real women is allowed to be posted.

Instead of moving 90%+ of the threads from this board into a new board, why not move the minority into a puppies & rainbows forum where they can pretend womens safety & security is not under threat.

If anyone knows of any other womens forums where free speech is allowed & gender critical is not regarded as foul language, please message me how to find them/join them.
I don't use twitter etc... so haven't found anywhere else I can keep up with current events that matter to me as an adult human female.

How can we talk about abortion, rape, murder, pay gap etc. if we aren’t able to talk about who women actually are? Or if when we do, we’re told we are the “cis” oppressors? Or if we aren’t able to tell exactly what the pay gap is or the rape figures are because the data doesn’t distinguish on the basis of sex? Or if we can’t talk accurately about porn culture in schools because a lot of it is intrinsically connected to ideas about gender identity?

That’s why women here think the gender/sex issue is important. It’s fundamental to all of those things you describe above.

On another thread women here are discussing companies’ increasing removal of the word “women” in favour of “menstruating person” and “menstruator” etc - and very explicitly to delink menstruation from being a girl or woman. Mention was made of “menstrual equity” activists. How are we going to tell what on Earth this means, if we can’t use the words “women” and “girls”? Who is experiencing inequity and why?

How are we going to address a pay gap if we can’t measure it or talk about it?

I think you’re confusing trans people with gender identity ideology. Gender identity ideology impacts on every one of the things you’ve mentioned above. It gives men a free pass to do whatever they like, whilst women’s experiences, voices and words get erased, because under gender identity ideas “cis” women become oppressors and lose the right to even define themselves.

Leave FWR as it is

You've got the rest of Mumsnet for lib feminism.
There was a thread in aibu not too long ago suggesting we should scrap women's prizes in acting and just have best actor instead. No one seemed to realise that women would never win.
Sounds right up lib fem ally to me.

It feels a bit like MN would like to hide us away for talking about sex and gender, but these are pretty central to feminism! This seems a bit odd after the MF ruling yesterday.

I don't think people are going after a minority group. They're asking to be allowed to discuss the big issues you mention, even if this raises points which some trans rights activists object to.

Think it's interesting the number of people saying that gender and identity and trans rights are the most important feminist issues right now. Seriously? What about the women murdered every 3 days, domestic violence, safe streets, nudes in schools, pay gap, abortions in Texas?? Trans people cause none of those things, they are overwhelmingly caused by straight, cis men, who are the powerful group in a patriarchy . But as the most powerful group they are harder to fight than a minority without political representation. Feels as though people like to call themselves feminists, hang some ribbons and go after a minority group as an easy way to feel like they're making a difference. Would be great if this was a more lib feminist board, then it could focus on the actual issues affecting daily lives of women, rather than this GC distraction stuff.