Long feature about Maya Forstater

a timely read.

Pips Bunce is one of the individuals that provided me with Sherpa services.

Funny how his wife never gets to put on a glam frock and attend an award ceremony with him. I suspect she is at home tidying the nail varnish drawer in the bathroom cabinet.

(As an aside, I think the AIBU and Relationships boards have many excellent examples of getting to the bottom of a story, and don't think it's much of a stretch to think the quality of MNers' OPs and reading conprehension reflect this. Unfortunately, that's not to say there are no wild overreactions, bad-faith misunderstandings, etc.... but perhaps that's just the "training" turned to the bad side! )

The writer is desperately trying to avoid getting targeted herself for writing the piece so her using the word Terf is the journalism equivalent of “Do it to Julia!”

I wrote it very clumsily, Medusa!

Perhaps I could be a journalist.

No, that's what I meant, Medusa. I'm surprised to see a journalist using that term in this context.

If Maya used that term she'd be vilified. I've never heard her say anything disrespectful about trans people. Unless disagreement is disrespectful nowadays, of course.

Maya comes across very well in this article. When the verdict in her case was issued in the week before Christmas 2019, I was absolutely gutted and could only imagine how difficult it was for her. JKR's support the following day seemed like such a boost. Hopefully, this Telegraph piece will result in many more people understanding the issues and even lead them to the Sex Matters website.

I think Jane Gordon probably would have more in common with Maya than Bryony (Gordon, her daughter) - BG strikes me as being quite woke.

Pretending Pips Bunce is literally a woman and giving a women's award because sometimes the male P. Bunce comes to work in a wig, dress and make-up (which I have no problem with) is a grievous insult to women. Bunce's confidence in self-expression should be commended, but having to pretend Bunce is actually female is ridiculous.

YY. This writer seems like a bit of a clueless idiot.

She male is pretty offensive, no?

I don't really get the she-male part. No need to include a slur.

Pretending Pips Bunce is literally a woman and giving a women's award because sometimes the male P. Bunce comes to work in a wig, dress and make-up (which I have no problem with) is a grievous insult to women. Bunce's confidence in self-expression should be commended, but having to pretend Bunce is actually female is ridiculous.

The "she-male" quote comes in the context of the writer's sudden, somewhat jarring, self-insertion into the piece:

As much as there does seem to be, in the extreme arguments put forward by certain sections of the transgender movement, an element of misogyny, there is, too, a whiff of misandry coming from some of Forstater’s supporters. As a woman who grew up in the ’50s and ’60s, I think I have a more tolerant view of what my two daughters call The Patriarchy. And my, doubtless old-fashioned, acceptance of a more traditional female life puts me slightly at odds with the kind of feminism that Forstater and the ‘Terfs’ expound.

It seems to me – and I put it to Forstater – that a little more tolerance on both sides of this argument might make the issue less angry and confrontational. Isn’t this threat of an army of ‘she-males’ waving their willies (according to Forstater, 90 per cent of transgender women are intact) as they walk into women-only spaces, a little exaggerated, particularly as the Government has now dropped plans to reform the Gender Recognition Act by introducing self-ID?

That aside, though, I do think the writer got across very well how very normal and sane Maya is. Even the slight dig about the "whiff of misandry coming from some of Forstater’s supporters" would work to snap many reasonable people back to seeing Maya as in no way radical or extreme, whereas thinking a person can change sex, or that gender is more important than sex (I've seen both worldviews), is extremely radical.

I don’t think it matters whether the author of the article likes Maya or has aligned belief. I think it mostly stuck to the facts and was not super indulgent to be an opinion piece.

And her use of ‘she-male’ is cringeworthy and reduces her credibility considerably in making comment about Maya’s ‘beliefs’ being maybe a bit extreme. It actually shows the writer to be rather out of touch even on her choice of words to convey sarcasm and disdain.

Placemarking to read later, thanks for sharing

Maya Forstater interviewed by Benjamin Boyce:
29 Mar 2021

" #IStandWithMaya | with Maya "

Last year Jane Gordon wrote a very sympathetic puff piece announcing her colleague David Thomas' change of name:

Telegraph
14th March 2020
By Jane Gordon
'David Thomas started his transgender diary last March, documenting his journey. Now he is waving goodbye to his old male self. Hello Diana'
(extract)
"It has to be said that the woman I encounter today is a world away from the man I knew during a period in the 1990s when, as journalists, we would frequently find ourselves writing on opposite sides of the gender divide. But the fact that we are now two 60-something women – hopefully on the same side – is not as strange as I expected it to be. This is partly because there is no denying that Diana’s facial surgery has subtly softened her face in rather the same way that her new identity seems to have softened her character. The argumentative, slightly domineering, Eton-educated man I remember (he was the original white privileged male), who penned a book in praise of the patriarchy called Not Guilty: In Defence of the Modern Man, has mellowed in a way that makes a lot of our conversation seem like a slightly frivolous woman-to-woman chat." (continues)
www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/call-diana-columnist-david-thomas-reveals-new-life-look/

Itsallgoingtobefine above picked out this sentence.

"If Forstater had won the case, it would have legally prevented employers from dismissing staff for expressing the view that there are only two biological sexes."

There won't be any Biology teachers left employed.....

I think its a good article. Two things really hit home when I read it:

The first is that although the problem is often articulated in this way:

"It seems to me – and I put it to Forstater – that a little more tolerance on both sides of this argument might make the issue less angry and confrontational. Isn’t this threat of an army of ‘she-males’ waving their willies... a little exaggerated.."

The real problem is the re-writing of history - our understanding of maleness and femaleness into current culture - by entitled males. So this is the "reality" that will pass to the next generation directly. The problem is not a current army of "she-males". It the changing perspective of reality that we are passing on.

And secondly, the current movement of the culture seems to be intent on proscribing feelings into law. This is the right way to feel and you must feel it or you will be breaking the law.

I suppose the latter is the case with most of the protections we legislate for. BUT this one is counter to most people's experience of reality. It strikes me as so dangerous.

Well it’s a good article but then ruins it rather by tagging on a section about other people whose views have been criticised - this includes JK Rowling but also Piers Morgan, Lawrence Fox, Amber Rudd, Bryan Adams (for an anti Chinese rant) ... Not exactly helpful for Maya and JKR to be lumped in with these.

I was aware of the Gregor Murray connection. They is useful for demonstrating the ridiculousness of this ideology

threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3586397-Gregor-Murray-SNP-Councillor-guilty-of-verbal-abuse

There's considerable history of Gregor Murray's sexism, misogyny & arrogance:

August 2018
Children’s convener resigns following row over expletive-laden social media outbursts
(extract)
"The North East councillor apologised last month for a series of expletive-laden outbursts on Twitter following an anti-trans protest at London Pride event but was later branded a “disgrace” by party colleague Julie Bell over the remarks.

Gregor Murray, who identifies as gender non-binary and objects to being referred to with the use of the pronoun ‘he’, admitted to making “a number of wrong judgements in communicating with people who campaign against my fundamental human rights”. (continues)
www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/703892/childrens-convener-resigns-following-row-over-expletive-laden-social-media-outbursts

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3332132-Childrens-Convenor-Gregor-Murray-resigns#prettyPhoto

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3316098-Childrens-Convenor-Elected-Councillor-calls-women-cunts-on-Twitter-rants

Murray claimed victimhood in 2018 too:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3332582-Trans-councillor-leaves-roles-after-threats-to-life

It seems that in 2017 " while deputy convener for education, Cllr Murray attacked Alex Salmond’s plan for a 40% female quota in boardrooms as “f*ing stupid”

Thanks ItsAll, that's great. I got the impression the interviewer didn't like Maya much

Thank you
I was aware of the Gregor Murray connection. They is useful for demonstrating the ridiculousness of this ideology