An inclusive way to be gender critical?

You're posting in bad faith, Pensive Pigeon. You're sea-lioning

Yep! And an awful lot of time invested in doing so.

I feel like I'm being fed on, and I'm off

This thread has 354 messages, which is suprising because it's one of the most irritating and banal initial posts I've read to date on mumsnet.

I feel bizarely drawn to it in a way I simply can't explain because it really doesn't warrant the time commitment.

People, save yourselves, look away.

So OP no males whatever their gender in female only spaces and female sports. Also get men to make male spaces safe for transwomen and non binary males. Got it!

What gets me about the trans debate, is that it's ok to disenfranchise 50% of the population for the sake of not offending a small minority!

It means accepting that people have a gender identity but that is different to sex.

For spaces where sex matters, sex is placed above gender when deciding what spaces people use.

Is that right OP? If so, I agree but don’t think that many TRAs would see it as inclusive.

334bu, yes. As I have stated in my opening posts. Single sex spaces are made safe spaces for a whole multitude of genders but remain single sex. Sports categories are single sex but multi gender, uniforms allow for this etc etc. More is done to protect against trans phobic violence from their own sex within these safe spaces.*

What? This makes absolutely no sense.

Yes I suggested that you stop sidetracking a thread where those of us who reject gender discuss how to respond to the census, where you wanted to discuss gender and suggest an alternative to rejection (ie not respecting our position) and I requested you take it elsewhere as it wasn’t relevant there. It was interesting to read you try to explain your ideas a bit more, but sorry I am still with everyone else who has found your position confused, inconsistent and yes, naïve, which is understandable because you repeatedly demonstrate that you haven’t actually fully understood what the issues are that we are facing, and seem to think if we were all just nicer then we might get a better response from those who have a completely different worldview and purpose/goal than us.

The fact that I suggested you start your own thread to stop derailing another doesn’t prove or disprove either way whether your intent here is genuine or in bad faith tbh. I hope the former but I would definitely recommend you take a step back for a bit and do a lot more reading and listening to others.

So how can we be more inclusive? Is it possible to include a subset of the male sex into single sex spaces? If males of all gender types, including transwomen, share the same pattern of criminality with regards to violence and sexual offending how can it be logical to say that any male can safely be included in spaces where women are vulnerable to male violence. Is this dilemma ever acknowledged by those who would like women to be more inclusive? What solutions do they have for dealing with this conflict? Until the group asking for inclusion can put forward solutions how on earth can they expect inclusion?

they might well experience oppression if they were able to biologically become a woman

However, as they can't biologically become a woman they don't experience the same oppression. As male people they may experience discrimination because they don't fit the male " mould" but this is nothing to do with any oppression women experience.

You're posting in bad faith, Pensive Pigeon. You're sea-lioning.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4164702-Bunbury-s-Eighth-Sealion-training-for-beginners

Surely the answer is to socialize boys and girls more equally, according to their individual personalities; and not encourage children to transition if they don't fit the stereotype?

^^This. It seems that most people agree that stereotypes are 'a bad thing'. I really don't understand how the answer can be to label people according to how much they identify with them.

It never ceases to amaze me how many men twist self defense into aggression. ''When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression'', as the saying goes.

''Self defense is no offense'' as feminists say.

Boys are socialized to be competitive, stick up for themselves, be leaders... Transitioning is not going to erase that, even if they experience all the other shit that goes with having a female body.

While this is a generalization, it is largely correct. Surely the answer is to socialize boys and girls more equally, according to their individual personalities; and not encourage children to transition if they don't fit the stereotype?

When you spend your life avoiding conflict, it must be very easy to see dissent as an act of aggression against your Self.

I am very clear about sex. What is confusing is the now fluid definition of Gender.

Sex, to me, is based on your chromosomes (DNA) and primary sexual characteristics. So I am female.

Gender is how society treats me, both socially and legally. Until recently this was also based on my sex. So I am a woman because I am female. Now, with transgenderism, I am a woman only because I say I am. Or at least that is how it seems to be, as males can now also be women. So I am confused.

I am also confused (and concerned) that it seems like males can now change their sex, legally at least. But what I don't understand is how they can do this, since they can't change their DNA? A lot of the time this isn't really an issue, except when it comes to female safety. It matters in any situation where females are at risk of male violence. It matters where medical outcomes are different for males and females. It also matters when people brought up as men, claim to speak for those people brought up as women.