Debbie and Stephanie Hayton interview transcript

I had no idea Stephanie was a physics teacher, too.

Ooh. There was an amazing piece of forced teaming in sometging recently - totally obvious and manipulative. Was it on the Moral Maze when they did TG stuff? It was a TW vicar who basicallly said 'I expect x (woman on the panel) and I have lots of shared experience.' Anyone remember?

YY Oxyiz it's a bit "I piss on your boundaries", isn't it.

That article . Offensive on so many levels. Who decided that this person is an ally to women? Why? I don't get it.

It's pretty arrogant to write an article like that and not mention that you have a wife who is an actual female physics teacher.

I happen to know that the interviewees for the Straight Spouse Network podcasts write their own bio, so Stephanie must have particularly wanted that emphasising.

I have no doubt that the strategy most successfully employed by Stephanie has simply been a female teacher successfully teaching. Seeing someone a bit like yourself doing something really helps.

I would love to see her interviewed about it.

Stephanie Hayton teaches physics in Birmingham England as a female physics teacher. She has supported and encouraged girls to study the subject and take up careers in the physical. Sciences and Engineering.

Physics World, Education & Outreach
'Gender balance, one woman at a time'
29 Sep 2016

(extract)
"When physics teacher Debbie Hayton transitioned from male to female, she conducted some “controlled social observations” in her classroom. In this article (originally published in Lateral Thoughts, Physics World’s regular column of humorous and offbeat essays about physics and physicists), she reflects on her experiences

"...The following day the other class sat in the same place as I geared up for a repeat performance. For some now forgotten reason, however, I had chosen to wear a skirt that day rather than trousers. I was already well into my run-up when I realized that the activity needed to be replanned as a matter of urgency. The class had to make do with the balloon being stuck to the wall on the other side of the room.

Some activities have definitely got better. I now join the other long-haired people on the styrofoam platform when the Van de Graaff generator comes out, and jewellery can be very useful when demonstrating magnetic and non-magnetic materials. Much of mine, it seems, is fabricated from mild steel rather than more precious materials. But in other respects I miss things that I took for granted. Moving heavy trolleys with dodgy wheels is more of a struggle as I have lost upper body strength and I have first-hand experience of the different way that men and women can be perceived when they open their mouths in meetings. I hasten to add that children seem remarkably free of the prejudices that seem to trouble some folks of my generation about women when it comes to physics and engineering.

But does having a female teacher in years 10 and 11 help girls decide whether to take A-level physics? After four years the answer seems to be “probably not”. Changing my gender role seems to have had no more effect than other strategies that I have employed over the years... In any case, I can sense a sigh of relief from my male colleagues: none of you need to take this particular plunge for the sake of physics."

physicsworld.com/a/gender-balance-one-woman-at-a-time/

I wonder if Stephanie Hayton has had much opportunity to share the successful strategies and insights which she has employed to encourage more girls into the physical sciences and engineering. I should like to hear more from her and other female physics teachers.

I don't know why this has just occurred to me, but "disrespecting toilet policies" is literally pissing on someone's territory isn't it.

No wonder so many are keen to do it.

But does having a female teacher in years 10 and 11 help girls decide whether to take A-level physics? After four years the answer seems to be “probably not”. Changing my gender role seems to have had no more effect than other strategies that I have employed over the years.

As someone who was inspired to study physics by my brilliant female physics teachers I can't express how angry this statement makes me.

If you look at DH's Twitter, the pinned tweet is a biography thread. The interview this comes from is in the first tweet. The thread was pinned in June. So DH still thinks that offensive interview is the best way to introduce himself.

Dr Hayton, "it's something which is personal to me. It was four years ago, the government in the UK decided that they wanted to change the law so that we'd move from a system where people can change their sex, their legal sex, that's the sex marked on your birth certificate, from needing a doctor's diagnosis and medical reports to basically being a free-for-all. At the time, I thought that was a bad idea because the credibility in the system came from those checks and balances.

So I started campaigning. I felt that this change would make trans people less secure in society, it would damage our position in society and basically make people trust us less"

Dr Hayton has said in the past that he does not want/need a GRC as it does not give him any additional 'rights'.

The motivations for campaigning and seeking 'alliances' with women & concerned parents groups are made explicit in the statement above.

Stephanie seems clued in on womens/lesbians rights issues. Did he enter gender critical politics because Stephanie was becoming interested in it, which stopped her from being able to attend meetings or post in places like here for support without him seeing it.

I really feel for Stephanie and her children. And the children in his physics classes. This is the man who wrote an infuriating article about girls avoiding studying physics that entirely revolved around him and concluded "But does having a female teacher in years 10 and 11 help girls decide whether to take A-level physics? After four years the answer seems to be “probably not”. Changing my gender role seems to have had no more effect than other strategies that I have employed over the years." physicsworld.com/a/gender-balance-one-woman-at-a-time/.

Abusers can be charming on the surface at first, especially to those without experience, so we have to judge men on their proven actions and his actions and recorded statements are shocking.

I've never heard a toilet policy being read out. Is it a thing? Or is it just a made up "hilarious" anecdote, possibly as a boundary tester?

At feminist meetings, of all places
When the toilets policy has been read out.

Indeed. It's mind-boggling isn't it? How often do you hear a toilet policy actually being read out? I would say almost never. And how often would you have a toilet policy read out, in a room full of women who have been specifically campaigning to keep them sex segregated?

Maybe once, twice?

A toilet policy, being read out, specifically addressing the person who then violates it.

"... I am a little bit contrary and when people tell me, when people start objecting I then think well, okay, let's you know, let's push a bit harder and see what happens".

Here it looks like the opposite could be true. It's interesting that this may be a situation where the transitioning partner refuses to apply for a GRC because it would allow the (religious) non transitioning partner to obtain an annulment, and thus end the marriage without recourse to a divorce.

If a husband has no intention of ever seeking a GRC then in what sense are they 'transitioning' or requiring of protections associated with the 'reassigning' their gender /sex ?

That's a really interesting point Tinsel.

And thanks for linking those previous threads R0. They are very informative.

Thinking about this situation in terms of the spousal exit clause, I note that Hayton does not have a GRC.

Trans Rights Activists have done what even I have to grudgingly admit is a masterful piece of DARVO about the exit clause, claiming it can trap trans people in marriages (it can't).

Here it looks like the opposite could be true. It's interesting that this may be a situation where the transitioning partner refuses to apply for a GRC because it would allow the (religious) non transitioning partner to obtain an annulment, and thus end the marriage without recourse to a divorce.

If this were the case I think it would be further evidence of coercive control?

This is speculation of course but it's an interesting illustration of how reality is often the exact opposite to the prevailing narrative.

So Hayton says they know what the issue is, indeed, are fully behind women, leading them in some respects, but as far Hayton themself is concerned, shucks?

Hadn't seen that post by DH before but that's pretty eye opening about a general attitude.

Extract from the transcript:

Dr Hayton makes explicit the motivations for campaigning, "It seems to be the most polarized and toxic political debate I've ever known, but it's something which is personal to me. It was four years ago, the government in the UK decided that they wanted to change the law so that we'd move from a system where people can change their sex, their legal sex, that's the sex marked on your birth certificate, from needing a doctor's diagnosis and medical reports to basically being a free-for-all. At the time, I thought that was a bad idea because the credibility in the system came from those checks and balances.

So I started campaigning. I felt that this change would make trans people less secure in society, it would damage our position in society and basically make people trust us less I felt, so I didn't think it was a good idea. So I started campaigning on it and over the next year or so, I formed alliances with different people"

Dr Hayton then explains that he identified women's groups & those concerned with Safeguarding children as those he would make alliances with.

Relevant threads & articles:

Discussion of 'NASUWT Trans Equality in Schools and Colleges
Advice and Guidance for Teachers and Leaders' published 2017
At the front & end is acknowledgement,

"The NASUWT is very grateful to Dr Debbie Hayton (Teacher) for assisting in the development of this guidance."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3938537-NASUWT-Trans-Equality-in-Schools

November 2018
Latter half of thread concerns apparent impact on Stephanie Hayton in interview with Stella O'Malley
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3430608-Stella-OMalley-Trans-Kids-Its-Time-To-Talk

June 2019 OP DancingRaven wrote:
"I came across a post on Twitter which included what appears as a screenshot from a WhatsApp conversation with a gender critical ally. The image is attached for reference.

It is so disappointing to see this, are women's boundaries just amusing to everyone? How can we work together when our sex based rights are just 'politics'?"
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605090-Boundaries-and-Allies

February 2020 Quillette article by Dr Hayton:
'I May Have Gender Dysphoria. But I Still Prefer to Base My Life on Biology, Not Fantasy'
(extract)
"Autogynephilia drove my own transsexualism." (continues)

thread with link & discussion of article:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3812773-Impressive-new-article-by-Debbie-Hayton

May 2020 Uncommon Ground article by Dr Em
'Forced Teaming, Feminism, LGB and ‘Trans Rights’
(extract)
"Neither feminism nor LGB rights are comfortable bed fellows with the men’s rights activism which emerged in the late sixties and early seventies in the form of transgenderism/transsexualism. This deliberate coupling of opposing ideologies is an example of wide-scale forced teaming.

Forced teaming is a term employed by those who work on abuse, grooming and predation. It was originally coined by Gavin De Becker in his work The Gift of Fear and is also used as a concept regarding criminal activity such as con-artists and romantic scamming. The predator will create the idea that there is a shared goal, or an attitude of we are all in this together, we are allies, in order to disarm, gain trust and manipulate his target. The social contract that most people have been educated or raised in – that we should try not to offend others, be polite, be accommodating – makes forced teaming incredibly difficult to resist. In general, we don’t want to be rude and say ‘actually, your problems or goals are different to mine and so no, we should not work together’ or ‘no, I don’t feel comfortable with this’ (continues)

uncommongroundmedia.com/forced-teaming-feminism-lgb-and-trans-rights/

I think there is a strong culture of maintaining a marriage through adversity. It is hard to end a relationship even when it has been changed if it can fall back into some sort of equilibrium.

Someone I know had the terms of her marriage changed when her husband presented his case for an open relationship, where they remained married but he would have relationships outside that marriage. She loved this person very much, and believed he was going through a mental health crisis as he was behaving so much out of character. So she continued to support him as best she could, and he continued to breach her boundaries, bit by bit.

In the end she had to divorce him, not because she wanted to give up on the relationship, but because he was spending so much money that she had to do this to makes sure she kept the roof over their heads for the sake of the children.

If I had been in Stephanie's position at the time she was and without the information provided here by TinselAngel and other trans widows on the trans widows threads I would have almost certainly made the same decisions she did.

Thanks to this site if I ever found myself in the same position, despite loving my husband, I would file for divorce immediately. But this would be with the benefit of greater knowledge and with having had the experience of dealing with an alcoholic family member.

socialworker222 yes, I mostly agree although I feel Debbie has had her own pressures and stresses not necessarily of her own making. No one chooses mental illness..

It makes me very angry that people try and say gender dysphoria is not a mental illness. I am not a trans widow but have seen gender dysphoria up close.

I've also heard of churches who pressurised people to 'disassociate' (for want of s better word) from the ttans person.

But there are churches who are supportive and I don't think it's always one picture.

My friend is married to an alcoholic and is working out if she stays or goes. I hope she goes but it needs to be her choice. Another friend has s trans woman husband and, for now, seems to be staying.

Her choice, and probably for her (for many reasons) for the best. But she is finding her own form of dissociation. No young kids involved, so, so.much easier.

So many relationships are so hard.

Agree Italian and Biology. People are often terrified to leave partners threatening suicide or experiencing mental illness, and stay for fear of consequences or the judgement of others. Throw in having school age kids, the church, and the judgement of others backed by media messages on transphobia and the happy.rainbow family life you can have if you 'love enough' and you can see why she stayed. It always interests me that trans activists are keen to tell the world that gender dysphoria is NOT mental illness, does NOT require psychiatric diagnosis or treatment, and all distress will be relieved by allowing rapid transition. Yet the same people then highlight the mental illness aspect, even post transition and in Haytons case, acceptance and a successful life as that desired authentic true self. It rarely adds up. And of course keeps partners tied in. Stephanie Hayton has many pressures to stay. I feel sorry for her just as I would feel sorry for someone staying with an unrecovered addict or repeat cheater. That's not infantalizing: it's seeing the multiple pressures and feeling sorry that she has been treated so badly and put in this position. She has made major compromises for (it seems primarily) her family. The other Hayton has, as so often with late transitioners, made precisely, err, none