Debbie Hayton's article for National Review

Hi moptophairshop

I believe we posted our first comments on the same thread.
It took me a few years to post. What I did in that time is read and read and read. It took me off down all sorts of rabbit holes but I'm much more cited up about things now. And I feel like I know some of the long term posters in here personally as I've read so many of their points and opinions even though they don't know me from Adam! Luckily I've always been quite opinionated and feisty so never bought the be nice mantra!

This only goes to prove I am nowhere near ready to discuss things with someone in real life.

I wouldn't necessarily draw that conclusion unless you're proposing to discuss it with radical feminists. A lot of non feminists (and even alas some feminists too), would be amenable to the argument "look, I can't be a bigot, this trans person agrees with me"

Welcoming male voices that appear to agree with our "controversial" point of view, is how most people feel in the early stages of their feminist consciousness being raised. It's a journey many have been on.

Eventually though, a lot of us begin to question who really gains from this approach and conclude that ultimately it doesn't improve outcomes for women and girls.

I don't know, my gruntle is fairly dissed that yes, male ts get listened to with much more enthusiasm than women.

It's a tough subject with a history OP, not least that FWR is somewhere transwidows can talk openly about their experiences and be supported without having to make way for a male partner to be celebrated on how they treated the people they left behind them. Often in a lot of wreckage, with pretty much no voice and no help.

Mind, lol @ fired out of a cannon. Can a nest of vipers work a cannon?

Before I'm fired out of a cannon, 'disgruntled' was a poor choice of words. 'Justifiably angry' would be closer!

Moptop you've hit a bit of a nerve, there's been a long debate around this. FWIW I think it's been very useful having Debbie, Miranda and Fionne speaking from their perspective.

Miranda, a trans woman, was taken to court for transphobia by Helen Islan from Mermaids, an incredibly stressful time for him (I believe he now uses male pronouns). The judge ruled there was no case.

I'm interested in hearing what Debbie has to say so thanks for posting, although I note that lots of women are disgruntled that male voices are heard above women's in this debate.

Welcome to the board.

Oh my sweet summer OP

You have unwittingly poked something of a hornets nest. The promotion of the voices of trans widows' husbands (I can't make the point without calling them that HQ) has been hotly debated on this forum for some time.

Some progress has been made towards prioritising female voices here, such as the voices of trans widows and daughters of transitioners, as their voices are excluded by default when the voice of their husband or father is centred in feminism.

Here are some past threads for context:

The latter part of this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3430608-Stella-OMalley-Trans-Kids-Its-Time-To-Talk

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605090-Boundaries-and-Allies

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3938537-NASUWT-Trans-Equality-in-Schools

Don't worry OP. You're quite welcome, but your own voice is what matters. Don't take it personally that not everyone is positive about male voices receiving a platform in a discussion about women's rights. I understand your pragmatism. It's a bold, counter cultural thing to prioritize women, do I understand that it can be a culture shock. Stick around. And buckle up.

It would also clear feminist spaces for their wives, daughters, mothers and other female relatives.

ABSOLUTELY. It would be an excellent way to demonstrate respect & empathy for women.

I said this on another thread but I’ll repeat it here. The most useful thing Dr Hayton, Miranda Yardley, Fionne Orlander & co could do for us is campaign for their right to be recognised, respected & validated as men, as valid as any other men & with the right to use male-specific spaces safely.

It would be a much more practical option than third spaces, allies like Owen Jones & Dr Harrop could support them (‘You Can Pee With Me’?) & it would fight the ridiculously old-fashioned, sexist notion that ‘woman’ is about someone’s brain & taste in clothes rather than their biology.

What FloralBunting said
My version was going to be a bit more... succinct

I thought I hadn’t seen them around for a while.

Well put Debbie. There are limits.

I never tire of reading Hayton's perspective. One really doesn't see that much of it.