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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stephen King retweets JKR

593 replies

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 28/06/2020 18:43

Grin

A Dworkin quote.

Stephen King retweets JKR
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RHOBHfan · 29/06/2020 22:18

That was for @Benny10

RHOBHfan · 29/06/2020 22:17

[quote Benny10]@RHOBHfan
Aren't lots of transgender women working in prostitution and often killed and raped by men especially in less developed countries?[/quote]
Are they?

On a macro scale similar numbers of trans women prostitutes are killed and raped by men as biological women?

Source?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/06/2020 22:17

You know what actually a third space option would absolutely be the best option. There are reasons not to Trans people use female spaces and there are reasons to let them use female spaces.

Thank you! Now can you convince Stonewall about your ingenious solution please?

prolefeed · 29/06/2020 22:17

Sorry, typo. Aren’t allowed to ask if they have a GRC.
Transwomen must not at any cost be asked to prove their rights. No certificates. No badges. That is totes outing and puts them in immediate danger of their very lives. They must be allowed to access wherever whenever they want, with no barriers, and no justification.

robin1984 · 29/06/2020 22:17

@TehBewilderness

Ah right so a kind of we dont want them so you Ave them? Doesn't that miss the point a bit?

They are already yours. I am asking that males stop rejecting other males from the category male for superficial reasons.

by this logic would you be happy to accept very male looking trans men into these spaces as you consider them women?
Highperbolay · 29/06/2020 22:16

Benny, you are sounding more transphobic by the post I'm afraid to say!

Also:

That I as a man might identify as a woman to get ahead in my career?

Yes, exactly this!

Google Laurel Hubbard, Fallon Fox, Hannah Mouncey, Rachel McKinnon. Males mediocre at their sports who are suddenly doing very well!

Google Pips Bunce - bog standard fairly successful but ten a penny bloke working in Credit Suisse. Starts wearing dresses into the office a few days a week and suddenly is in Financial Times Champion of Business lists.

Lily Madigan became a women's officer - looking at their old Twitter feed and their TV appearances, I would imagine that they would struggle to have got anywhere near a Labour officers position if they were not transgender.

Benny10 · 29/06/2020 22:16

@SirSamuelVimesBlackboardMonito
I will read it now.

@robin1984 put it better than I ever could, seems like the reasonable take on the whole thing. Why such impassioned opposition against trans people when they are the vulnerable the majority of the time? Just don't get it, straight men are far more of a threat.

exLtEveDallas · 29/06/2020 22:14

Benny, Almost every single woman I have read or spoken to about this issue has said the fair compromise is the third space. Conversely almost every single transwoman has shouted it down, often with threats or TERF/Bigot calling.

The Vancouver Rape Relief Shelter was defunded by a Transwoman politician because they refused to open their doors to males - they even offered a third space. Defunded. Females that have been raped have no safe space to recover because a man demanded to be let in. Can you see now why we feel the way we do?

prolefeed · 29/06/2020 22:14

Oh bless. Benny, mate. Third spaces don’t validate transwomen as women and anyone who suggests third spaces is a bigot.
Naked men are already in women’s changing rooms. You are allowed to ask if they have a GRC. (Stella Creasy suggested that any teenage girls traumatized by erect penises in showers could be offered therapy.) that’s alright innit? 13yo girls are just unfortunate collateral damage when viewed against the rights of men to bring their penises into women’s changing spaces.
You are so unbelievably fucking naive and arrogant you genuinely don’t think women have been through all of your new shiny ideas Already and been told to fuck off.

FloralBunting · 29/06/2020 22:13

Screaming is so old hat. Moving away and tutting is the woke option.

MilleniumHallsWalledGarden · 29/06/2020 22:11

@TehBewilderness

Ah right so a kind of we dont want them so you Ave them? Doesn't that miss the point a bit?

They are already yours. I am asking that males stop rejecting other males from the category male for superficial reasons.

Hear hear

SirSamuelVimesBlackboardMonito · 29/06/2020 22:09

Benny third spaces have been roundly rejected as hateful. Sorry.

TehBewilderness · 29/06/2020 22:09

Ah right so a kind of we dont want them so you Ave them? Doesn't that miss the point a bit?

They are already yours. I am asking that males stop rejecting other males from the category male for superficial reasons.

MilleniumHallsWalledGarden · 29/06/2020 22:09

[quote Benny10]@RHOBHfan
Aren't lots of transgender women working in prostitution and often killed and raped by men especially in less developed countries?[/quote]
Killed and raped by men, yes. Prostitution is awfully dangerous for its practitioners, largely cos the type of men who use them are scum.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 29/06/2020 22:08

‘This would never happen, you would scream and he'd be dealt with. There's been some good points made on here. But everyone on both sides of this focuses on the extreme exceptions to the rule rather than the vast majority who are the people actually living this who want to harm no one or take advantage of no one it becomes so emotionally charged‘

I think what you’re missing here, Benny10, is just how un-extreme and horribly common sexual assaults and flashing are. It’s not the sort of thing that happens to a few women occasionally, it’s virtually every woman a number of times. And we all have experiences of being disbelieved, of shouting out and being ignored, of being punished in some way for making a fuss. Remember #MeToo? What do you think that was all about?

The problem is that although the vast majority of transwomen aren’t flashers or peeping toms themselves, by opening our spaces to anyone who claims to be trans, you’re making it inevitable that there will be even more shit for women to put up with. We will be victimised even more and even younger. That’s not extreme, it’s tedious, shitty reality.

SirSamuelVimesBlackboardMonito · 29/06/2020 22:08

Yea like a card, and if someone entered a space but didn't have the card they would be in trouble as they would be if they were just a regular offender

Also, this is transphobic as fuck, according to Stonewall. Careful now.

Benny10 · 29/06/2020 22:08

@exLtEveDallas

I don't think that any man should be able to walk into a female space because he's said he identifies as a female. There should be a process and someone with everyone's best interests at heart should approve you before you can access them? Fair compromise?

And how would we know he’d ‘been through a process’? Surely the fairer ways would be either a third space option that is mixed sex for anyone that doesn’t mind, or for men to be more welcoming of transwomen in their spaces?

You know what actually a third space option would absolutely be the best option. There are reasons not to Trans people use female spaces and there are reasons to let them use female spaces.
SirSamuelVimesBlackboardMonito · 29/06/2020 22:05

Benny have you looked at the link yet?

Benny10 · 29/06/2020 22:04

@aliasundercover

I don't think that any man should be able to walk into a female space because he's said he identifies as a female. There should be a process and someone with everyone's best interests at heart should approve you before you can access them? Fair compromise?

How would we check that the appears-to-be-male-but-claims-to-be-a-woman person entering a female space had been through this 'process'? Would they get a badge or something?

Yea like a card, and if someone entered a space but didn't have the card they would be in trouble as they would be if they were just a regular offender
purplepeopleeaters · 29/06/2020 22:04

@Apileofballyhoo

Hopefully Philip Pullman is feeling stupid.
Why, what has he done ? Well done SK.
robin1984 · 29/06/2020 22:04

@OldCrone

I have read through some of those replies, and i'm concerned about some of the voices cited. The 'intellectual dark web' are not credible academics, they are mainly grifters rebadging old conservative ideas about various inequality being due to some natural order of things, they are certainly not allies to feminism. On the other MN thread, someone cites the quilette, they are pro-eugenics and defend race science. I am not very comfortable if gender critical ideas sits well with those people.

@NotMiranda I agree it is not entirely clear why they are discussing intersex people, but my take away from it is that humans are very complicated. sex is not black and white, therefore I am not surprised if during development people develop in different ways so that mentally their gender does not align with their body.

The neuroscience suggests there are observable differences between trans and cis people and similarities between identified gender and average for that gender, doesn't that suggest there is a physical basis to it. I can see how the intersex discussion informs that, by explaining how complex it is when it comes to the body, it is probably just as complex when it comes to the mind. I agree that a spectrum and outliers do not mean two large clusters men and women don't exist, but what should people who don't neatly fit in do. It seems like the medical establishment position is that affirmative treatment is the most successful, and given the high levels of victimisation, mental health problems and suicide, why are people so resistant to it if it helps people.

It is a very small number of people, and it is men who are the much bigger threat not trans women, why is so much energy put into undermining this one small and vulnerable group. A lot of the threats seem very hypothetical and don't seem to have materialised, I can't imagine most trans women would want to draw attention to themselves in communal changing areas. if they act in a lewd way of course it would be appropriate to ask them to leave, just as if it were a non-trans women. Would people be more comfortable with trans men (who are not men by the logic) being in womens changing rooms? What about androgynous-looking people, or women who happen to look masculine, how will they demonstrate their status as women. When it comes to women's shelters, surely anyone that is a threat to another woman in a shelter would not be tolerated. Don't many of the people who run women's shelters support trans rights to access their services? isn't the biggest threat men that both trans and non-trans women need to be protected from.

When people object to 'trans women are women' it seems a very reductive position and not the simple biological truth they are claiming.

It really seems to be that so many of the arguments against trans rights seem to be very similar to arguments used against gay people in the past, grounded in ideas about simple natural biological truths

I don't know, I am not convinced by these gender-critical ideas at all. It seems like there is no solution and you just want these people to not exist, or be able to live in the world, sadly many take that option

Lamahaha · 29/06/2020 22:03

Sk is a bastard for tweeting something that makes people who are often very vulnerable feel good about themselves

It's ego-stroking and pampering and pandering with a lie; not recommended for long-term mental health. Because in the end truth will out. They are not women and deep inside they know it.

It's much healthily to face reality and learn to live with it.

Benny10 · 29/06/2020 22:02

@TehBewilderness

I don't think that any man should be able to walk into a female space because he's said he identifies as a female. There should be a process and someone with everyone's best interests at heart should approve you before you can access them? Fair compromise?

No. You need to focus on teaching males to expand their view of males to include those who identify as women and girls. Be an inclusive person and teach others to be inclusive of same sex in same sex spaces.

Ah right so a kind of we dont want them so you Ave them? Doesn't that miss the point a bit?
SirSamuelVimesBlackboardMonito · 29/06/2020 22:01

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Here you go. Have a read. Fair warning, you may end up feeling a bit sick after a while.

MilleniumHallsWalledGarden · 29/06/2020 22:00

I don't think that any man should be able to walk into a female space because he's said he identifies as a female. There should be a process and someone with everyone's best interests at heart should approve you before you can access them? Fair compromise?

Not a fair compromise. Transphobic AF per Stonewall's acceptance without exception policy.

You're going to fall in with the wrong crowd and get radicalised, Benny.

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