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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman's Hour - 16 June - scrapping the proposed GRA amendments

145 replies

nauticant · 15/06/2020 10:29

Just announced that this will be a topic for discussion tomorrow. It will be interesting whether, following a shift in people being more allowed to discuss this, and it being clear how this triggers violent misogyny, whether WH will realise that giving a fair hearing to the gender critical view is essential.

OP posts:
Shedbuilder · 16/06/2020 15:16

I've just emailed them here

[email protected]

I agree about the disappointment factor. So many times I've felt excited when it's announced that WH is going to have a debate/ tackle this issue. Some of the discussions they've conducted have been totally incomprehensible and shed no light at all on what's been going on.

AbsintheFriends · 16/06/2020 15:11

WH are just so consistently disappointing on this. It's all lowest common denominator, minimum requirement, box ticking, lip service stuff that doesn't leave anyone feeling any more well informed than they were before.

In itself that's woefully indicative of the situation. Woman's Hour - the programme whose chief remit is to look at subjects through a female lens - aren't able to do that with this subject, and aren't brave enough to admit it.

Melroses · 16/06/2020 15:09

Seemed like the producers had put the pro trans to the top for Jane to read as they were predominantly from mother’s of trans people proclaiming how lovely they are are and nobody needs to have any concerns

That will have been mermaids rallying the troops then. Probably well primed by Trans Media Watch.

DH turned it off after the introduction, mentioning JKR, said books were selling 'despite' the controversy pissed him off, thus missing a treat with Helen.

Angryresister · 16/06/2020 14:52

Just listened to the podcast when emails were read out. I have no idea if they represented the full . Seemed like the producers had put the pro trans to the top for Jane to read as they were predominantly from mother’s of trans people proclaiming how lovely they are are and nobody needs to have any concerns. At the end the thing about having to share a cell in prison was clarified. Not if you are on remand apparently so yes women prisoners can be expected to share a cell with men. And that was it..

UncleShady · 16/06/2020 14:41

To be fair on Jane Garvey, she did very well interviewing Sally Hines a while ago.

FantaOra · 16/06/2020 14:37

Belcher lives in Wiltshire which I've seen reported as having the UKs best standard of living on measures such as poverty, social mobility etc. Poor poor thing having to live there and be selected as a political party candidate and running a successful business. Terrible experiences all round for Belcher.

FFS

AntiSocialDistancer · 16/06/2020 13:50

To Helen - What do you think about those who disgree with you?

To Joan - Don't you think the government has better things to do?
Don't you feel awful for poor Helen who wants to run away?

I wasn't very impressed.

LillianBland · 16/06/2020 13:46

@TorkTorkBam

I would like to see Woman's Hour do a piece along the lines of why do we have sex segregated spaces at all, which are universal and which are in some countries only. Not about trans at all - not a trans topic.
Which, of course would immediately be jumped on for being transphobic for NOT mentioning (centring) trans.
R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 12:19

It is really worth emailing Woman's Hour with thoughts & suggestions.
The editorial team should be made aware of their audience's opinions.

TorkTorkBam · 16/06/2020 12:11

I would like to see Woman's Hour do a piece along the lines of why do we have sex segregated spaces at all, which are universal and which are in some countries only. Not about trans at all - not a trans topic.

JamieLeeCurtains · 16/06/2020 12:09

@zanahoria

Trans rights activists are in trouble now, the tables have been turned, they are now in a position where they will have to campaign to change the government's position. I am sure they will play the martyr to perfection but they have been stuck in #nodebate mode for so long it will be hard for them to get out. Women's groups had brilliant journalists shredding ministers like Maria Miller, TRAs have Owen Jones posting self righteous angry tweets. They will get nowhere unless they can take their campaign outside the twitterverse.
It certainly does seem like 'No Debate' as a tactic (or was it the strategy?) is finished.

What's left for the TRAs is either trying to rather blatantly intimidate and threaten women like Liz Truss and JK Rowling, or debating openly and fully and bit-by-bit revealing their position(s) as MRAs.

TorkTorkBam · 16/06/2020 12:07

I wish they would let Jenni Murray back in and let her go at it. She has already been cancelled for wrong think.

Now the BBC allows some debate and the tide is turning it could be part of the inevitable rehabilitation exercise.

R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 11:54

Let's not forget that Belcher alleged that Janice Turner was responsible for a wave of teenage trans suicides. Turner replied in a column and Belcher complained to IPSO. IPSO found that there was no substance to any of the allegations.

May 2018 Helen Belcher was also involved (through Trans Media Watch) in the reporting of Mumsnet & its members to the Home Affairs Committee on Hate Crime for transphobia.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3238618-Trans-Media-Watch-has-written-to-parliament-saying-trans-identified-male-can-be-considered-as-hate-speech-and-that-Mumsnet-users-referring-to-penises-are-being-transphobic

Melroses · 16/06/2020 11:53

@Deltoids1

I’m always disappointed in interviews when the toilet issue is raised. It’s policed as it is at the moment, via common decency. I don’t enter men’s toilets because it’s entering men’s spaces and I therefore realise I shouldn’t be there. Likewise my husband doesn’t enter the women loos for the same reasons. The only people to ever break that common courtesy usually have an ulterior motive in my experience.
Exactly.

Which is why the "How are you going to police it" is so wrong, because policing it was never an issue. Instead that is a statement of "How are you going to stop me".

R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 11:51

Belcher is very keen on silencing women that dissent so I'm not surprised that Garvey was playing it safe. I'm disappointed that they invited Belcher on at all though.

Belcher has also played a key role in misrepresenting the spousal exit clause in the GRA as a 'veto' .

threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3717872-Trans-Widows-the-Liberal-Democrats-and-the-Spousal-Veto

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3792495-spousal-veto

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3820266-Lord-Keen-disputing-the-language-of-the-spousal-veto

R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 11:43

It is worth being aware of the background to why Jenni Murray does not do Woman's Hour interviews about sex & gender.

Sunday Times
March 5th 2017

Jenni Murray: Be trans, be proud — but don’t call yourself a “real woman”
Can someone who has lived as a man, with all the privilege that entails, really lay claim to womanhood? It takes more than a sex change and make-up

(extract)
Let me make something absolutely clear at the outset. I am not transphobic or anti-trans. Not a Terf in other words. That’s trans-exclusionary radical feminist, to use one of the often-confusing expressions that have entered the language in this age of gender revolution.

I’ll admit to feminist, but radical or separatist? No, on account of spending the past 37 years of my life as a woman married to a man and, together, raising two fine sons. I make my position plain because I know that in writing this article I am entering into the most controversial and, at times, vicious, vulgar and threatening debate of our day. I’m diving headfirst into deep and dangerous waters. I’ve no difficulty with men doing whatever they choose to express their feminine side. Indeed I welcome it. " (continues)

The fury that a male-to-female transsexual could be so ignorant of the politics that have preoccupied women for centuries hit me again last year — 16 years after I had met Carol. This time I was speaking to another trans woman, India Willoughby, who had hit the headlines after appearing on the ITV programme Loose Women.

India held firmly to her belief that she was a “real woman”, ignoring the fact that she had spent all of her life before her transition enjoying the privileged position in our society generally accorded to a man. In a discussion about the Dorchester hotel’s demands that its female staff should always wear make-up, have a manicure and wear stockings over shaved legs, she was perfectly happy to go along with such requirements. There wasn’t a hint of understanding that she was simply playing into the stereotype — a man’s idea of what a woman should be.

She described hairy legs on a woman as “dirty”. But hairy legs are not considered dirty in a man. Did she not know that the question of whether a woman should shave her legs or her a rmpits had been a topic of debate among women for an awfully long time? And that to describe a woman who chose not to shave as dirty was insulting and again suggested an ignorance of sexual politics?

Unsurprisingly, my polite and informed line of questioning exposed me to a barrage of criticism on social media. I was a Terf and didn’t understand what Simone de Beauvoir, the author of one of the great feminist tracts, The Second Sex, meant when she wrote: “One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman.”

As a matter of fact, I have understood perfectly what de Beauvoir meant ever since I read her as a teenage girl. Her subject was that “second sex”. She used the word sex advisedly.

Your sex, male or female, is what you’re born with and determines whether you’ll provide the sperm or the eggs in the reproductive process. What de Beauvoir was analysing was gendered socialisation" (contines)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/be-trans-be-proud-but-dont-call-yourself-a-real-woman-frtld7q5c

Jenni Murray was publically censured by the BBC for this article & has since been 'no-platformed' from speaking engagements to discuss her book, 'A HIstory of Britain in 21 Women'

Yesterday on 'Good Morning Britain' Willoughby alleged that J K Rowling was indeed transphobic & attributed this to having being radicalised by 'terfs' who had 'colonised' a prominent parenting website. Willoughby's evidence for this was J K Rowling's reference to clownfish in her statement on why she had chosen to speak out sex & gender issues.

www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

Deltoids1 · 16/06/2020 11:42

I’m always disappointed in interviews when the toilet issue is raised. It’s policed as it is at the moment, via common decency.
I don’t enter men’s toilets because it’s entering men’s spaces and I therefore realise I shouldn’t be there. Likewise my husband doesn’t enter the women loos for the same reasons.
The only people to ever break that common courtesy usually have an ulterior motive in my experience.

Clymene · 16/06/2020 11:41

Let's not forget that Belcher alleged that Janice Turner was responsible for a wave of teenage trans suicides. Turner replied in a column and Belcher complained to IPSO. IPSO found that there was no substance to any of the allegations.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1121392130021363713.html

Belcher is very keen on silencing women that dissent so I'm not surprised that Garvey was playing it safe. I'm disappointed that they invited Belcher on at all though.

zanahoria · 16/06/2020 11:40

Trans rights activists are in trouble now, the tables have been turned, they are now in a position where they will have to campaign to change the government's position. I am sure they will play the martyr to perfection but they have been stuck in #nodebate mode for so long it will be hard for them to get out. Women's groups had brilliant journalists shredding ministers like Maria Miller, TRAs have Owen Jones posting self righteous angry tweets. They will get nowhere unless they can take their campaign outside the twitterverse.

Melroses · 16/06/2020 11:35

I think it's worth pointing out to Woman's Hour that Garvey's neutrality is being impacted by fear of being targeted and 'cancelled' by extremists. That's pretty bloody serious.

Can fear of targeting, and 'cancelling' and abuse and losing your income be equated to fear of openly discussing your much revered views with someone who does not agree with you?

MindTheMinotaur · 16/06/2020 11:31

I've read Helen Belcher's letter to JK Rowling online. It's just me, me, me, me, me.

JamieLeeCurtains · 16/06/2020 11:28

I think it's worth pointing out to Woman's Hour that Garvey's neutrality is being impacted by fear of being targeted and 'cancelled' by extremists. That's pretty bloody serious.

JamieLeeCurtains · 16/06/2020 11:24

[email protected]

ArriettyJones · 16/06/2020 11:24

That not than.

ArriettyJones · 16/06/2020 11:23

@Shedbuilder

Used to love Jane Garvey, liked the fact that she cut very sharply through quite a lot of BS on Woman's Hour and had a lovely cynical wit. But if she is a feminist you've never guess, would you?
She has been a terrible disappointment.

OTOH, she’s a single parent, needs to earn a living and, having seen what happened to Jenni Murray, maybe she feels the need to perform perfect neutrality.

I wouldn’t necessarily attribute it to her being scarred of the Twitter mob, more than she’s scared of being jobless.